Continuous Vintage Failure: Please Recommend New "Modern" Amp

[peterp1]

If he is going to buy a new amp anyway, it would be a good time to step up in power and in ability to deal with more difficult loads, as doing so will provide more flexibility in future speaker decisions. And more headroom is almost always a good thing, all other things being equal.

I've had three sets from the Vandersteen 2C series, including the 2Ce Signature II's currently in one of my secondary systems. Based on my own measurements, I would say that their 86dB sensitivity rating is very generous.

I definitely agree (even more so since the OP has indicated he now has the 75wpc KA-8100). The Kenwood KA-5700 and KA-8100 delivered a real 40 wpc and 75 wpc because the spec was very tough (had to maintain it's distortion and frequency response specs at full rated power rating for a minimum of 5 minutes).

With today's specs, you don't know what you are going to get, as witnessed by the Leak dropping its output 15watts from its rated maximum 45wpc to hit the distortion rating. What any modern amp can do continuously (versus peak power) is a mystery because the specs are very ambiguous 95% of the time.

This is the FTC amplifier rule that applied from 1974 until it was later weakened:

1974 FTC "Amplifier Rule": Rated power shall be obtainable at all frequencies within the rated power band without exceeding the rated maximum percentage of total harmonic distortion after input signals at said frequencies have been continuously applied at full rated power for not less than five (5) minutes at the amplifier's auxiliary input, or if not provided, at the phono input.​

 

[peterp1]

It looks like the Outlaw delivers the goods according to S&V's test bench: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/outlaw-rr2160-stereo-receiver-review-test-bench

This is the prior model, but sounds like amp is unchanged.

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:​

0.1% distortion at 144.7 watts​

1% distortion at 165.1 watts​

​

Two channels driven continuously into 4-ohm loads:​

0.1% distortion at 188.5 watts​

1% distortion at 235.3 watts​

​

Analog frequency response:​

–1.29 dB at 10 Hz​

–0.42 dB at 20 Hz​

+0.10 dB at 20 kHz​

–0.83 dB at 50 kHz.​

 

[joelll]

Never thought there would be almost 100 replies...Thanks all!

--Budget: $750--$1000

--No tuner required. Integrated or separates are OK.

--Warm, fat, transparent, crisp...Almost forgot, punchy!

--I love the 70s silver face stuff. Some of the all black stuff was cool, too, particularly some of the Yamaha Natural Sound stuff that came around the 1980s.

--Big volume knobs with slight soft "clicks/detents" type of feel. Knobs that STOP at min & max setting. No continuous rotation of the knobs, please.

--NO DIGITAL LED SCREENS, NO LED NUMERALS, NO LED DISPLAYS, NO LED ANYTHING PLEASE

--Bluetooth not required. Phono ok, but not required. I record phonographs onto my Alesis Masterlink, then keep them on the HD or burn them to CD.

--Primary input sources
1) PC HD stored wav & flac files,
2) Commercial channels of streamed musical content (Music Choice, Spectrum, Pandora, etc)
3) Alesis Masterlink, HD based mastering deck, that also plays & burns CDs.

--Musical styles played: Classic Rock, Rock, Classical, Jazz, Contemporary, Instrumental

--I use "loudness" control when in background music mode. GNP System 110, Vandersteen 2ce.

Going by OP's parameters:

"Price new $500-750"
"No LED displays"
"Detented controls"
"Knobs that stop at each end of their range"
"Big volume knob"
"Silver face"

This narrows the field down considerably. The solution that comes to mind are the integrated amplifiers from Yamaha, A-S301 through A-S801. They're currently making a number of choices in OP's price range, and then some range-topping ones in the multi thousands (meters must be really expensive these days!!). The higher the model number, the higher the watts per channel and additional features, but they all appear to be of the same family. The knobs are large and appear to have stops at the ends of their ranges, and the only LEDs are little indicator dots.

I can't think of anything with detented controls in this price range, maybe in any price range for new equipment. Controls that rotate without end stops make remote control less expensive to build, and customers want remotes and manufacturers want reduced costs.

Crutchfield and other retailers carry this series, which means that one can be ordered, tested, and either kept if it can do the job and do it well, or sent back if it doesn't make the grade.

Edited to add: As far as I can tell (and as others have said below), the volume and tone knobs have stops, but the source knob does not. I'm not sure if the source knob not having stops would be a deal-breaker.

 

[Vintagear]

Going by OP's parameters:

"Price new $500-750"
"No LED displays"
"Detented controls"
"Knobs that stop at each end of their range"
"Big volume knob"
"Silver face"

This narrows the field down considerably. The solution that comes to mind are the integrated amplifiers from Yamaha, A-S301 through A-S801. They're currently making a number of choices in OP's price range, and then some range-topping ones in the multi thousands (meters must be really expensive these days!!). The higher the model number, the higher the watts per channel and additional features, but they all appear to be of the same family. The knobs are large and appear to have stops at the ends of their ranges, and the only LEDs are little indicator dots.

I can't think of anything with detented controls in this price range, maybe in any price range for new equipment. Controls that rotate without end stops make remote control less expensive to build, and customers want remotes and manufacturers want reduced costs.

Crutchfield and other retailers carry this series, which means that one can be ordered, tested, and either kept if it can do the job and do it well, or sent back if it doesn't make the grade.

I owned a silver Yamaha AS-801 for a while. The volume knob does not have stops as recall, it's a continuous rotation type.

 

[gslikker]

Going by OP's parameters:

"Price new $500-750"
"No LED displays"
"Detented controls"
"Knobs that stop at each end of their range"
"Big volume knob"
"Silver face"

This narrows the field down considerably. The solution that comes to mind are the integrated amplifiers from Yamaha, A-S301 through A-S801. They're currently making a number of choices in OP's price range, and then some range-topping ones in the multi thousands (meters must be really expensive these days!!). The higher the model number, the higher the watts per channel and additional features, but they all appear to be of the same family. The knobs are large and appear to have stops at the ends of their ranges, and the only LEDs are little indicator dots.

I can't think of anything with detented controls in this price range, maybe in any price range for new equipment. Controls that rotate without end stops make remote control less expensive to build, and customers want remotes and manufacturers want reduced costs.

Crutchfield and other retailers carry this series, which means that one can be ordered, tested, and either kept if it can do the job and do it well, or sent back if it doesn't make the grade.

One thing overlooked is that piss-poor non-indented volume controls sometimes seem to get a life of their own after so many years.
I bought something and the seller also gave me a NAD L70 receiver for free, he said it works but sometimes volume goes up really loud by itself or if just touching the knob and he simply wanted to get rid of it. (I just scavenged it for a few parts as not liking the bpc stuff)

It would be nice to know if reports of "suddenly it went very loud" would reach AK...

 

[stereofanboy]

I owned a silver Yamaha AS-801 for a while. The volume knob does not have stops as recall, it's a continuous rotation type.

It is not continuous rotation.

 

[Vintagear]

It is not continuous rotation.

Ah yes you're right. Was it the source knob? I must be confusing it with something else that came through here.

 

[michaelm101]

Has the 8100 been fully restored? That series sounds very good after a restoration. I have heard a few KA-7100 & KA-8100 that @Aud10file has restored and they sounded crisp and clear. Not trying to dissuade you from your decision, I have both vintage and new. Just commenting that the Kenwoods sound very nice.

Below is a video and pics of an 8100 @Aud10file did a while back.

Has not been fully restored. I like this amp, so what would the cost typically be for a full restore and are these restorations warranted to some degree?

 

[stereofanboy]

Ah yes you're right. Was it the source knob? I must be confusing it with something else that came through here.

If you operate the source knob manually, it will go continuously, although once you've reached the last source in that direction that source remains chosen despite the knob moving on.

I typically use the remote for this unit and didn't even know about this until I checked it just now.

 

[sanford12]

It looks like the Outlaw delivers the goods according to S&V's test bench: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/outlaw-rr2160-stereo-receiver-review-test-bench

This is the prior model, but sounds like amp is unchanged.

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:​

0.1% distortion at 144.7 watts​

1% distortion at 165.1 watts​

​

Two channels driven continuously into 4-ohm loads:​

0.1% distortion at 188.5 watts​

1% distortion at 235.3 watts​

​

Analog frequency response:​

–1.29 dB at 10 Hz​

–0.42 dB at 20 Hz​

+0.10 dB at 20 kHz​

–0.83 dB at 50 kHz.​

I had the RR2160. It drove all my speakers before the Canton Karat's well, great sounding receiver but it wasn't enough to bring out the best into the 4 ohm Cantons. The Outlaw's are one of the best values out there.

 

[peterp1]

I had the RR2160. It drove all my speakers before the Canton Karat's well, great sounding receiver but it wasn't enough to bring out the best into the 4 ohm Cantons. The Outlaw's are one of the best values out there.

What amp you find that worked well with the Cantons?

 

[Vintagear]

If you operate the source knob manually, it will go continuously, although once you've reached the last source in that direction that source remains chosen despite the knob moving on.

I typically use the remote for this unit and didn't even know about this until I checked it just now.

I knew it was one of the knobs on that unit. It’s been a while, had mine about 5 years ago.

 

[Vintagear]

Has not been fully restored. I like this amp, so what would the cost typically be for a full restore and are these restorations warranted to some degree?

I think warranty would vary tech to tech. Probably best to deal with local techs to avoid shipping charges. My guess would be that a full restoration would be somewhere between $400-$600. Where are you located?

 

[michaelm101]

I think warranty would vary tech to tech. Probably best to deal with local techs to avoid shipping charges. My guess would be that a full restoration would be somewhere between $400-$600. Where are you located?

I'm in SoCal. I've had a want ad out for a tech for several years. Recently, while looking at a vintage amp on Offerup, the seller put his biz card (Vintage gear Tech) in the ad...
We talked on the phone for a bit and he's about 20 min away!

 

[Vintagear]

I'm in SoCal. I've had a want ad out for a tech for several years. Recently, while looking at a vintage amp on Offerup, the seller put his biz card (Vintage gear Tech) in the ad...
We talked on the phone for a bit and he's about 20 min away!

Also check the sub forums here on AK for the specific brand you are looking at. Post there about recommended techs near your area or ask about a tech you’re considering to see what AK’ers think. There are a lot of qualified people on those subforums. Good luck!

 

[peterp1]

Your talking from you not undstanding the post. The 5000 is what the Sansui would be in today's dollars and that for half that money you could buy a modern piece that would out perform the Sansui. I think my Parasound at $1300 would sound better than the Sansui. So you want to press the point from your misunderstanding go ahead but I'm done responding to you.

We should move the discussion to another thread if we want to continue the value discussion, but I'll briefly provide more information to explain why general inflation math is not relevant for audio. For technology, not only do prices not follow the general inflation, there are usually huge cost reductions over time because of massive advances in technology and huge gains in design, manufacturing, and production efficiencies.

For example, the first PC's in 1981 were $1500 to $4000+ (in 1981 dollars). Any $100 PC today would absolutely obliterate any early PC. The early color TV's were $1000 in the 1950s, but any $100 TV today would obliterate them. Nobody says that we should compare early PC's against $5000 to $13,500 computers today, or compare early color TV's to $11,500 TV's today. Instead, people would ask, "Why in the hell are you comparing a vintage PC or TV to modern when modern is so definitively better and cheaper?????"

That's the way it is in technology -- way better performance over time, at a tiny fraction of the cost.

Only in audio does new equipment often fall short of vintage performance, or struggle to match it. Look at the Leak amp -- at $1000, it is rated at "45 wpc", but it only specs distortion at 30wpc because distortion is undoubtedly higher at the rated power. In the vintage (post-1974) era, amps had to hit their distortion and frequency response at maximum power sustained for a minimum of 5 minutes. Even in features for 2-channel equipment, new is lacking -- no tape monitor, usually no loudness control, horrible tuner performance compared to even low-end vintage receivers.

The general inflation curve does not apply to technology. Massive deflation in price, along with massive performance gains, is the norm. Audio is the only tech category I can think of that is generally worse today than it was in the golden era of vintage (roughly early 70's to early 80's). The argument that the only fair evaluation of an $800 vintage receiver/amp is to compare to a $5000 modern amp doesn't make any more sense for audio than it does for TV's or PC's (and its pretty obvious that its laughable for TV's and PC's).

 

[AudioAvarice]

The reason that audio tech has somewhat stagnated when compared to other markets is simply less demand, except in portable. It's also not fair to lump vintage recivers, and vintage separate amps together, as one is an amp, pre, and tuner in one box, and is prone to more issues due to heat, and higher component count.

 

[JoeESP9]

We should move the discussion to another thread if we want to continue the value discussion, but I'll briefly provide more information to explain why general inflation math is not relevant for audio. For technology, not only do prices not follow the general inflation, there are usually huge cost reductions over time because of massive advances in technology and huge gains in design, manufacturing, and production efficiencies.

For example, the first PC's in 1981 were $1500 to $4000+ (in 1981 dollars). Any $100 PC today would absolutely obliterate any early PC. The early color TV's were $1000 in the 1950s, but any $100 TV today would obliterate them. Nobody says that we should compare early PC's against $5000 to $13,500 computers today, or compare early color TV's to $11,500 TV's today. Instead, people would ask, "Why in the hell are you comparing a vintage PC or TV to modern when modern is so definitively better and cheaper?????"

That's the way it is in technology -- way better performance over time, at a tiny fraction of the cost.

Only in audio does new equipment often fall short of vintage performance, or struggle to match it. Look at the Leak amp -- at $1000, it is rated at "45 wpc", but it only specs distortion at 30wpc because distortion is undoubtedly higher at the rated power. In the vintage (post-1974) era, amps had to hit their distortion and frequency response at maximum power sustained for a minimum of 5 minutes. Even in features for 2-channel equipment, new is lacking -- no tape monitor, usually no loudness control, horrible tuner performance compared to even low-end vintage receivers.

The general inflation curve does not apply to technology. Massive deflation in price, along with massive performance gains, is the norm. Audio is the only tech category I can think of that is generally worse today than it was in the golden era of vintage (roughly early 70's to early 80's). The argument that the only fair evaluation of an $800 vintage receiver/amp is to compare to a $5000 modern amp doesn't make any more sense for audio than it does for TV's or PC's (and its pretty obvious that its laughable for TV's and PC's).

IIRC preconditioning the amplifier at 1/3 power for 30(?) minutes was part of the required testing. Ther were quite a few amplifiers and receivers that failed during the 1/3 power testing.

 

[peterp1]

IIRC preconditioning the amplifier at 1/3 power for 30(?) minutes was part of the required testing. Ther were quite a few amplifiers and receivers that failed during the 1/3 power testing.

It's hard to find exact text for the 1974 rule (the FTC only goes back to the 2000 version - https://www.ecfr.gov/on/2017-01-03/title-16/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-432). Stereophile summarizes the changes pretty well here (https://www.stereophile.com/content/ftc-proposes-eliminating-its-amplifier-rule). Although it was relaxed in 2000 to 1/8th power, it was originally one full hour of presonditioning at 1/3rd power.

I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I don't think any production amps/receivers could have failed any of those tests because the FTC would not have allowed them to sell that model if it couldn't pass the test. Prototypes may have failed, which would have caused the manufacturer go back to the drawing board and change the design until it passed. They actively enforced the rule back in the 70's because audio was a household fixture and it was an "arms race" between manufacturers on power claims.

The standards are much weaker now. Some of the claims are ridiculous -- like Yamaha's "100-wpc" receiver where the power level was measured with a 1khz signal (not 20hz-20khz) and with 10% (ten percent!) distortion. Presumably that passed FTC standards, or maybe they just don't enforce them any more. It is literally it is impossible to compare true power of a modern receiver/amps today -- each manufacturer uses radically different criteria for their specs. Even their detailed specs are ambiguous (e.g. peak or continuous power often isn't stated, if it says "continuous", for how long?, what preconditioning was there?, etc.). I don't think any of the modern amps specs are tested anywhere close to the rigor of testing from 1974 through, well, whenever the FTC stopped caring .

 

[JoeESP9]

I think most here would agree that the old FTC standards were a lot better than what passes for standards nowadays. I cringe every time I see an ad for a "1000-Watt" "five-pound" receiver, or "1000 Watt" speakers.

I bought one of the original IBM PC's Amber monitor and all when they first came out. I'm still a fan of the old clicky IBM keyboards. Currently I have a couple of Corsair keyboards with Blue switches.