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Crossover Melt Down - Looking for an Explanation

whoaru99 said:
The Aerial info I looked at said 4 ohms nominal. Sensitivity 86dB/2.83V/m

Given 2.83V is actually 2W @ 4 ohms (nominal), the 1W sensitivity is 83dB/w/m.

And, recommended power they show is 100 to 700W. Doesn't need to be 700W.
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Got it, and yes I know it wasn't imperative that it be 700 watts. In fact, the very first thing I learned with these speakers is high wattage amplifiers medium wattage amplifiers, it didn't matter. the only thing that mattered was current and the amps ability to drive a lower impedance load.

That's why the Crowns have been my absolute favorite.
 
whoaru99 said:
Yeah, lot of talk about current in audio almost as some singular entity, but end of the day higher power is higher current because the two are essentially tied at the hip through the speaker's impedance.
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Well I paired it with a myriad of amps over the years. My favorite before the crowns was a Kenwood KA-3300D.

It's 4 ohm ability seemed to make all the difference in the world.

I paired the speakers with a Carver TFM at one point and it sounded awful compared to the Kenwood. I had two TFM's and mono blocked them both as well.
 
CaseyWKC said:
Well I paired it with a myriad of amps over the years. My favorite before the crowns was a Kenwood KA-3300D.

It's 4 ohm ability seemed to make all the difference in the world.

I paired the speakers with a Carver TFM at one point and it sounded awful compared to the Kenwood. I had two TFM's and mono blocked them both as well.
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There's lots of dubious correlation vs causation stuff in audio discussions. That is not intended to be a challenge to your preferences.

The point previous comment is there is only one way to get X number of watts or Y amount of current to any given load.

For example, let's just use example of 500W into a nominal 4 ohm load. The amp has to be able to produce 45Vrms and 11 amps (rounded values). There is no other combination that gives 500W @ 4 ohms. If the amp isn't producing 45Vrms and 11A into 4 ohms then it's not producing 500W at 4 ohms.

I've seen literally people say stuff like for 100 watts I'd rather have 100A and 1V rather than 100V and 1A. After all, they're both 100W and higher current is better. Except, neither work worth a darn for a 2, 4, or 8 ohm speaker. 100W at 8 ohms is ~28V and ~3.5A. That's it, that's the only combination that gives 100W at 8 ohms.

Apologies for the diversion. When I read about current in audio discussions it sometimes triggers me. LOL.
 
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whoaru99 said:
There's lots of dubious correlation vs causation stuff in audio discussions. That is not intended to be a challenge to your preferences.

The point previous comment is there is only one way to get X number of watts or Y amount of current to any given load.

For example, let's just use example of 500W into a nominal 4 ohm load. The amp has to be able to produce 45Vrms and 11 amps (rounded values). There is no other combination that gives 500W @ 4 ohms. If the amp isn't producing 45Vrms and 11A into 4 ohms then it's not producing 500W at 4 ohms.

I've seen literally people say stuff like for 100 watts I'd rather have 100A and 1V rather than 100V and 1A. After all, they're both 100W and higher current is better. Except, neither work worth a darn for a 2, 4, or 8 ohm speaker. 100W at 8 ohms is ~28V and ~3.5A. That's it, that's the only combination that gives 100W at 8 ohms.

Apologies for the diversion. When I read about current in audio discussions it sometimes triggers me. LOL.
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No, I completely understand that, especially getting triggered by it haha, I've spent way too much time thinking about it personally and would for it to be as simple as possible.

So where does damping factor come into play here?

Still doesn't quiiite explain why I would prefer a single kenwood amp rated at 150 watts over two carvers. And I misremembered, it wasn't a pair of TFM's it was a pair of Carver M-500T's.
 
Amps have different sound signatures as well as different speaker driving characteristics even thought they may be of similar power. This is what you are hearing and it is up to you to get gear that provides the good sound vs the sound you don’t care for as much. We have listened to a dozen or two different amps in my rig and there are favorites and some less enjoyable and others at times have different opinions of what was best.
 
Blue Shadow said:
Amps have different sound signatures as well as different speaker driving characteristics even thought they may be of similar power. This is what you are hearing and it is up to you to get gear that provides the good sound vs the sound you don’t care for as much. We have listened to a dozen or two different amps in my rig and there are favorites and some less enjoyable and others at times have different opinions of what was best.
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I completely agree that some amps have different sound signatures.

But this isn't the case here. I have with no exaggeration; probably tried over 30 or so amps with my Aerials. Haflers, Kenwoods, Sansuis, Yamahas, Pioneers.

Amplifiers that don't have the damping factor needed to drive these woofers sound like garbage, and that is that. :dunno:
 
CaseyWKC said:
So where does damping factor come into play here?
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I could recite to you the essence of what it is technically in terms of the calculation to get the number. More to the point though I've not been able to put much reconciliation into what it does to the sound in itself.

When DF is being compared between amps, for all practical purposes, it's never an apples to apples comparison because it's a comparison of different amplifiers having multiple differences, not the same amps with an exclusive difference in only DF.

Yes, I've heard probably all the anecdotes about control and all that, but I've also seen science that says that until DF gets really low like 10 or 20, the point of "control" is a red herring.

The most plausible aspect of damping factor is on frequency response. Amps with lower DF exhibit more deviation from flat response caused by speakers that have bigger impedance swings affecting the output. Tail wagging the dog, if you will.
 
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whoaru99 said:
I could recite to you the essence of what it is technically in terms of the calculation to get the number. More to the point though I've not been able to put much reconciliation into what it does to the sound in itself.

When DF is being compared between amps, for all practical purposes, it's never an apples to apples comparison because it's a comparison of different amplifiers having multiple differences, not the same amps with an exclusive difference in only DF.
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Understood.

I would appreciate whatever explanation you could provide - even if it's somewhat abstract.

This only adds to my overall confusion, and kind of leads me to believe that maybe it isn't all about subjective sound profiles then.

I have presumed damping factor had more correlation with amperage/current than it did "power" or... wattage.
 
CaseyWKC said:
Amplifiers that don't have the damping factor needed to drive these woofers sound like garbage, and that is that
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I sold the aDs L1590/2 I had because the dual woofers did not play well with my tube amps, 50watts, 16 damping factor. There was no control of the bass. I’m keeping the amps, they sound great.
 
Blue Shadow said:
I sold the aDs L1590/2 I had because the dual woofers did not play well with my tube amps, 50watts, 16 damping factor. There was no control of the bass. I’m keeping the amps, they sound great.
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And these are dual woofers in an isolated cabinet, midrange with it's own enclosure and the tweeter as well, and a considerably lower sensitivity than most - with the minimum amp being recommended at 100w-700w being able to drive a 4 ohm nominal load.

Again, when bring driven, I've watched it dip below 2 ohms and average around 1.6-2.4 on heavy bass tracks.
 
I like where this whole thread has gone, especially in comparison to the first couple of interactions.

But for the sake of the future of this forum, I do just want to point out.

I don't think my question was too convoluted - I think there were a number of factors at play and they translate objectively to everyday use for most of us.

and two - maybe some of us come off in an unintended way (to put it nicely), when trying to make sense of things.

Either way - there's a better future here I hope.

Edit : Not to throw shade or anything - but don't just edit your initial comment when you know you did that. LOL
 
mkane said:
The future of this forum.,.’lvde

Thanks for informing us.
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????

I was in no way trying to imply anything negative?

What does this mean?

Edit : I’m a young dude that’s been trying to break into this for years and on the repair sub of AK I have had nothing but help from people.

Here- in a general forum - where I’m trying to just ask a question I’m met with this ****?
 
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