• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Crossover Melt Down - Looking for an Explanation

Power over time, plain and simple. Most speakers are less than 5% efficient at converting electrical energy to acoustic energy. The rest is wasted as heat.

3 hrs with a MT3600 playing loudly in a domestic setting would definitely overpower most speakers as it applies to average power over said period of time. Power compression is definitely a factor and a function of impedance changes in components from the heat. @whoaru99 is likely spot on as it pertains to how the damage began.

Don't feel bad frat boy, many of us have also done it. I ran strapped McIntosh MC2300s to my big Altecs for years in my 20s. One evening, fueled by serious alcohol intake, we measured 126dB in my living room. A record that was!! Next day, the inductors in the crossovers were cooked so bad they were dead shorted. Took me a decade to chase down original replacements.
 
In post #42, the OP calls himself a "young dude". I like to see "Young dudes" on this forum. It makes me believe that someone out there might be using and caring for my audio gear long after I am gone. Sometimes, young and old can hear or say the same things, but apply different meanings, or intent to it. Sometimes explained by calling it a generation gap. Paul.
 
THANK YOU.

I’ve searched before. I’ve never read that write up / explanation.
Which is maybe the part you missed in last couple paragraphs of post #36. Sorta on me though, because I think you had already replied before I'd added that additional information.
 
Last edited:
Power over time, plain and simple. Most speakers are less than 5% efficient at converting electrical energy to acoustic energy. The rest is wasted as heat.

3 hrs with a MT3600 playing loudly in a domestic setting would definitely overpower most speakers as it applies to average power over said period of time. Power compression is definitely a factor and a function of impedance changes in components from the heat. @whoaru99 is likely spot on as it pertains to how the damage began.

Don't feel bad frat boy, many of us have also done it. I ran strapped McIntosh MC2300s to my big Altecs for years in my 20s. One evening, fueled by serious alcohol intake, we measured 126dB in my living room. A record that was!! Next day, the inductors in the crossovers were cooked so bad they were dead shorted. Took me a decade to chase down original replacements.
Oh wow, now that is some serious volume. I could maybe get close to that if I really pushed things but last night I trimmed the gain back on both channels of the crown and believe I found a good and balanced middle ground.

Your post #3 comes off wrong.
Yes it does. I left mine up.

The original user who left a kind of… not too nice comment edited his post so now i only look like the bad guy. ‍‍
 
Damping factor is important, to a point, and this point is highly dependent on the load (speaker system) driven and other factors.

The above (post 43) article (advertisement, written and published by a manufacturer selling cables and amplifiers, hardly objective) is not untrue, but uses a specific speaker system for the arguments and specific speaker cables, which takes it far from a universal global truth. That said, I agree with the article even though I would question some of the specifics and want more variation in the devices tested.

Floyd Toole’s article on the subject is also worth reading, as is Roger Russel’s Speaker Wire (which links to the Floyd Toole article). Objectivity requires reading scientifically derived materials from multiple sources and understanding the different factors in each.

If you are driving speakers, especially large drivers (woofers, subwoofers), directly connected from the amplifier to the speaker driver, it is more important and significant than if you are driving a speaker system through a crossover network for example. Amplifier topology/design also plays a part as some designs of direct-coupled amplifiers, transformer outputs, autoformer outputs, et al vary in the response to varying loads and to the back-feed from moving cones and collapsing flux lines. Your crossovers and cables certainly create enough resistance alone to make damping factors in the hundreds insignificantly different from DFs in the thousands. More on that I’m sure. If an amplifier had a way to perfectly control woofer motion by a super-high damping factor you can duplicate it by shorting a wire across the speaker terminals and press on the woofer cone, the damping should only allow the cone to return to the neutral position very slowly. This is one of the things that damping-factor zealots are selling. Note that there is almost no difference between this and doing the same experiment with no wires shorted across your speaker system’s terminals, …

Pro-audio components often have white papers, complete specs. Amplifiers for example will have charts and graphs that tell you what its power output at frequency is, phase shift, distortion, power vs load impedance. Pro-audio speakers often have similar graphs showing many things such as off-axis response, power compression, phase vs frequency and also impedance curves/graphs. This is necessary because the installer/integrator is selling the performance of an installed system and needs the engineering information to create that performance in its final environment. Most consumer-level speakers give you little to nothing. I can use examples but to avoid stepping on toes, look at speaker data from some manufacturers out there and note that the spec is “Frequency Response: 39Hz-40kHz” or something similar. At what tolerance, +/- 4dB? +/-10dB? It makes a difference. Is this in room, if so what is the anechoic response? Where does it deviate? What is the phase shift and where? 8 Ohms nominal means little without an impedance graph, and a recommended amplifier power range is pure marketing, … lets see a graph with power compression. Also sensitivity, … that’s at 1000Hz 1W, how much power is lost at 50Hz 100W? At the crossover point where lots of power can be lost? I could ramble forever on how (especially speaker and cable) manufacturers prey on those who read specs, but don’t really understand how they apply to their system or actual music as heard by a human in a normal room.

When you get into more powerful amplifiers, and especially higher quality amplifiers, many things change other than current, power, and damping factor, and often that is what you hear. Also, just hearing a “difference” doesn’t mean more accurate, what is known as “tube bloom” for example might be heard as more or better bass, but it is a deviation from accurate. Similarly some speaker cables with higher capacitance can cause (especially some amplifier designs) overshoot and ring in the HF range, people can hear that as more clarity or more detail, where it’s actually distortion. Tubes are famous for their ability to create pleasant distortion, and loved by many. Amplifiers, especially vintage amplifiers have widely varying levels of deviation from accurate, an example being the widely accepted marantz “house sound” that was designed in or Bob Carver’s famous tube-voice SS amplifier series.

My point regarding this paragraph is that it doesn’t matter as much what others prefer, you can swap amps around until you hear what YOU like to hear whether it’s objectively more accurate or not, and this is the best way to listen to your music. You will not nor should not get agreement from a group as large as this on what will sound the best.

I’ve said before that audio is science, but music is art. If you have a bronze statue, have it lighted from above, or lighted from below, or not lighted at all, it is the same statue but takes on a different aesthetic. All are the same statue but you like to see and display the details in your own way and it’s your statue. Unless you’re building a system for a client, build what sounds best to you.
 
Last edited:
And these are dual woofers in an isolated cabinet, midrange with it's own enclosure and the tweeter as well, and a considerably lower sensitivity than most - with the minimum amp being recommended at 100w-700w being able to drive a 4 ohm nominal load.

Again, when bring driven, I've watched it dip below 2 ohms and average around 1.6-2.4 on heavy bass tracks.
I’m really curious what you used to measure impedance of your speaker load while playing music?

Also, in almost any modern/decent cabinet speaker system, the midrange and tweeter are isolated from the bass section and from each other, usually a closed-back on the driver. Separate cabinet not necessary nor significant here.
 
Power over time, plain and simple. Most speakers are less than 5% efficient at converting electrical energy to acoustic energy. The rest is wasted as heat.

3 hrs with a MT3600 playing loudly in a domestic setting would definitely overpower most speakers as it applies to average power over said period of time. Power compression is definitely a factor and a function of impedance changes in components from the heat. @whoaru99 is likely spot on as it pertains to how the damage began.

Don't feel bad frat boy, many of us have also done it. I ran strapped McIntosh MC2300s to my big Altecs for years in my 20s. One evening, fueled by serious alcohol intake, we measured 126dB in my living room. A record that was!! Next day, the inductors in the crossovers were cooked so bad they were dead shorted. Took me a decade to chase down original replacements.
This makes sense and I concur, I did have the volume pots maxed at around 75% on the macros and tend not to drive it above the 90% mark from my computer/dac though. So I wasn't going crazy, this amp could easily fry everything if I told it to.
In post #42, the OP calls himself a "young dude". I like to see "Young dudes" on this forum. It makes me believe that someone out there might be using and caring for my audio gear long after I am gone. Sometimes, young and old can hear or say the same things, but apply different meanings, or intent to it. Sometimes explained by calling it a generation gap. Paul.
Thanks. Guess I'm not too young anymore. Mid to late twenties, but still on the younger side of the people I run into collecting and wanting to get this kind of gear repaired. It is rewarding and every day is interesting and new. For the most part, some days are frustrating haha.

Damping factor is important, to a point, and this point is highly dependent on the load (speaker system) driven and other factors.

The above (post 43) article (advertisement, written and published by a manufacturer selling cables and amplifiers, hardly objective) is not untrue, but uses a specific speaker system for the arguments and specific speaker cables, which takes it far from a universal global truth. That said, I agree with the article even though I would question some of the specifics and want more variation in the devices tested.

Floyd Toole’s article on the subject is also worth reading, as is Roger Russel’s Speaker Wire (which links to the Floyd Toole article). Objectivity requires reading scientifically derived materials from multiple sources and understanding the different factors in each.

If you are driving speakers, especially large drivers (woofers, subwoofers), directly connected from the amplifier to the speaker driver, it is more important and significant than if you are driving a speaker system through a crossover network for example. Amplifier topology/design also plays a part as some designs of direct-coupled amplifiers, transformer outputs, autoformer outputs, et al vary in the response to varying loads and to the back-feed from moving cones and collapsing flux lines. Your crossovers and cables certainly create enough resistance alone to make damping factors in the hundreds insignificantly different from DFs in the thousands. More on that I’m sure. If an amplifier had a way to perfectly control woofer motion by a super-high damping factor you can duplicate it by shorting a wire across the speaker terminals and press on the woofer cone, the damping should only allow the cone to return to the neutral position very slowly. This is one of the things that damping-factor zealots are selling. Note that there is almost no difference between this and doing the same experiment with no wires shorted across your speaker system’s terminals, …

Pro-audio components often have white papers, complete specs. Amplifiers for example will have charts and graphs that tell you what its power output at frequency is, phase shift, distortion, power vs load impedance. Pro-audio speakers often have similar graphs showing many things such as off-axis response, power compression, phase vs frequency and also impedance curves/graphs. This is necessary because the installer/integrator is selling the performance of an installed system and needs the engineering information to create that performance in its final environment. Most consumer-level speakers give you little to nothing. I can use examples but to avoid stepping on toes, look at speaker data from some manufacturers out there and note that the spec is “Frequency Response: 39Hz-40kHz” or something similar. At what tolerance, +/- 4dB? +/-10dB? It makes a difference. Is this in room, if so what is the anechoic response? Where does it deviate? What is the phase shift and where? 8 Ohms nominal means little without an impedance graph, and a recommended amplifier power range is pure marketing, … lets see a graph with power compression. Also sensitivity, … that’s at 1000Hz 1W, how much power is lost at 50Hz 100W? At the crossover point where lots of power can be lost? I could ramble forever on how (especially speaker and cable) manufacturers prey on those who read specs, but don’t really understand how they apply to their system or actual music as heard by a human in a normal room.

When you get into more powerful amplifiers, and especially higher quality amplifiers, many things change other than current, power, and damping factor, and often that is what you hear. Also, just hearing a “difference” doesn’t mean more accurate, what is known as “tube bloom” for example might be heard as more or better bass, but it is a deviation from accurate. Similarly some speaker cables with higher capacitance can cause (especially some amplifier designs) overshoot and ring in the HF range, people can hear that as more clarity or more detail, where it’s actually distortion. Tubes are famous for their ability to create pleasant distortion, and loved by many. Amplifiers, especially vintage amplifiers have widely varying levels of deviation from accurate, an example being the widely accepted marantz “house sound” that was designed in or Bob Carver’s famous tube-voice SS amplifier series.

My point regarding this paragraph is that it doesn’t matter as much what others prefer, you can swap amps around until you hear what YOU like to hear whether it’s objectively more accurate or not, and this is the best way to listen to your music. You will not nor should not get agreement from a group as large as this on what will sound the best.

I’ve said before that audio is science, but music is art. If you have a bronze statue, have it lighted from above, or lighted from below, or not lighted at all, it is the same statue but takes on a different aesthetic. All are the same statue but you like to see and display the details in your own way and it’s your statue. Unless you’re building a system for a client, build what sounds best to you.
I appreciate the breakdown here and the separation of amp performance between "pro gear" and "home gear".

Appreciated alternative examples like tube bloom that could work with/ and or is - distortion too depending on that person and their preferences.

Thanks!








I guess sometimes I'm just going to ask some dumb questions here and maybe rub people the wrong way.

I don't mean to.

I've been repairing this stuff for almost two years now. It would suck for equipment like this to not get repaired easily or accessibly.
 
Funny enough @whoaru99 I'm going thru some ideas for external protection for my speakers for my own sanity and I come across a comment of yours in a previous AK thread -



"Clipped waveform in itself is not the cause of tweeters blowing. Too much power is the actual culprit. Clipping can/will raise average power but the shape of the waveform itself is not the fundamental issue.

Fuses probably won't help because if you're that drunk and reckless in operation you'll eventually resort to using larger fuses anyway due to the hassle of the smaller ones blowing.

Closest thing to a real guarantee is either don't do it in the first place, which sounds unlikely, or some big ass pro audio speakers that will deal with the amount of power you have and even if heavily clipped will just laugh it off."

This is exactly what I needed to read and hear. Answers my question about damage I could have caused clipping the pre going into the amp, and lets me know - maybe I am just being a bit of a frat boy.

Not being the least bit sarcastic.

Edit : I really appreciate your profile picture

Am I searching for a set of ATCs?
 
Last edited:
No need to apologize Casey. As long as folks can check their egos at the door and treat others as they wish to be treated things run well here. Differences of opinion are common in life. Just remember when attacked it's like in football. The guy who posts the second shot usually gets nailed. Also if folks are posting online to gain validation they need to see someone for help.
 
Nothing to add except to say that if you're pushing the system so hard that you're melting crossovers, you're probably at hearing damaging levels. Protect those ears, they are important for this hobby!
 
Nothing to add except to say that if you're pushing the system so hard that you're melting crossovers, you're probably at hearing damaging levels. Protect those ears, they are important for this hobby!
And I concur once again. That was my primary concern with the creation of this thread.

I understand I have ear melting power levels at my disposal, however; I am not using the amps this way.

I have not exceeded listening levels of 106db even when intoxicated with friends or alone.

I have exceeded that well before with my previous PSA-2XH’s, and for extended periods of times with no repercussions.

Again, since adjusting my input sensitivity levels appropriately, I have been running these loud with no heat issues whatsoever.

I’m inclined to believe this was my main issue, for whatever reason that may have been.
 
Am I searching for a set of ATCs?

With regard to my previous remark about big ass pro audio speakers that will laugh off abuse, yeah, I stand behind that. But, as with many things, actual context/use case is a factor.

It's one thing to come up with something that fits that concept for use cases of normal/typical home amplification, 50, 100, 200 watts type deal.

But, when you're rocking really big amps it's a different matter pragmatically. Don't know that I could suggest any brand or model with confidence they would take potentially heavy clipping for any material duration, let alone extended periods. Such beasts may exist and I just don't know them, but it seems like a pretty stretch goal, so to speak.
 
Back
Top Bottom