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Crown; a victim of unfair generalization?
- Thread starter Kreshna
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- crown generalization jbl underrated
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DaveVoorhis
Addicted Member
In technical terms, what is the intention of a 76 joule capacity power supply in a device whose power output is measured in milliwatts?
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restorer-john
Addicted Member
Using the preamp to spot weld panels on his Boxster that popped off going round corners when pulling 1.0G.
BMWCCA
Addicted Member
A 205/60x13 in current gumball Toyo Proxes R888R might improve on that somewhat. Like playing a CD through a Crown instead of a 78rpm record.
I agree on both of those but isn't the evolution of the Boxster engine to today's 718 somewhat antithetical to your assumption that newer is always better? Or is more horsepower all that matters?
I agree on the Honda, but there's nothing comparable to it today, at least not from Honda. You can certainly enjoy it for what it is . . . just like a vintage amplifier from Crown. Sounds like we all agree that Crown is a victim of unfair generalization . . . the question in this thread title. Automotive analogies are simply stirring the pot.
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My 1976 914 would do that all day long...
Perhaps I misplaced the modifier - the SP20 has 38 (940 uF running 285V rails) while the D150 has 19 (18,800 uF running 45V rails).
Dave, understand that with any amplification device, the power supply is the amplifier. The active devices modulate the signal. I learned this lesson forty years ago with Frank Van Alstine's Double Dyna 400 amp and FET5 preamp (I had the latter). I took a page out of his book and similarly modified my Audire One amplifier. I replaced the bridge with a 30A unit and added an external power supply with another 60,000 uF of capacitance bringing the total to 80,000 uF. Result? Added transparency, but mainly improved dynamics at both ends of the scale.
All of the best gear in my experience has heroic sized power supplies. My preamp's big brother, the REF6 has six times that! The Pass Labs Xs preamp has over 200,000 uF of capacitance in its power supply for "unfettered transient response". A year ago, I found this to be true of my digital renderer, a Sonore microRendu as well. I upgraded its power supply to that of an Uptone LPS-1 with 60 Farads of ultracapacitors.
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If you actually quoted what I said, you'll find an important adjective - "all facets of audio gear". Having said that, I really enjoy the instant response of direct injection along with the selectable mode PDK tranny for lighting quick shifts and launch control. Surely, you understand that virtually all car companies in the market are forced to develop smaller, more efficient turbocharged engines to meet increasingly stricter governmental mandates. Mine's a 2013 with the six. And the upcoming GT4 will also have one.
Sorry, but I don't agree. My experience with them as owner and listener has always been mediocre. Rugged, reliable they may be - like pickup trucks. Fine for subwoofers, though.
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Kreshna
...but I have to know.
Interesting post from AVS Forum:
Emphasis mine. Is that true?
There are many users of Crown professional amplifiers in the home theaters and audio systems here. Their performance is excellent. The idea of properly-designed hi-fi amplifiers being "musical" or having "character" has been repeatedly debunked by double-blind testing...if (1)the frequency response is flat, (2)distortion (THD and IM) is below the threshold of audibility at all power levels short of clipping, (3) noise is below audibility, and (4) the unit has high input impedance and low output impedance (all properly-designed amplifiers meet all 4 of these criteria) the amplifiers will sound the same in a blind test provided levels are matched and neither amplifier is allowed to clip. Some receivers and integrateds, especially entry-level units, will clip easily or even shut down into difficult speaker loads (not enough current capacity.) Even the Behringer EP2500, which sells for incredibly low prices, works very well as a hi-fi amplifier according to those who actually use it in their systems (though I have reservations about some of their business practices, their power amplifiers are good units.)
Emphasis mine. Is that true?
With wider, modern tires sure. Not, however, with 165/80s of the day. Car & Driver measured 0.82.
Yes but off the rack P7's would get you 1G. And thats a 1973 car, changes where made after that.
Edit: Mine was measured at 1.07, but it was set up for Autocross so thats kind of cheating
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To suggest that any amplifier's distortion and noise playing music (as opposed to uncorrelated sine waves) is "below the threshold of audibility" is absurd.
I've yet to meet a perfect one.
DaveVoorhis
Addicted Member
The larger the filter capacitors, the lower the ripple current (or "hum") for a given current draw from the power supply. A low current draw, e.g., a preamplifier compared to a power amplifier, means smaller filter capacity will be sufficient to achieve a reasonable level of ripple rejection compared to that required for a power amplifier. Higher current draw requires larger filter capacitors to achieve the same level of ripple rejection.
Your SP20 uses tubes, so it requires a higher rail voltage (285v) compared to the fully solid-state D150 (45v). The D150 has larger filter capacitors (18,800 mfd) compared to the SP20 (940 mfd), in order to achieve reasonable ripple rejection given the higher current draw of a power amplifier.
Thus, the difference in joules stored in their respective filter capacitors is purely incidental; a mere side-effect of the necessarily higher rail voltage of the tubed SP20. It is no more a basis for comparing an SP20 to a D150 than seat upholstery colour is a measure of performance differences between a Honda N2000 and a Ford F150.
Thanks for the humorous experience-free speculation! Designers of the best audio gear would just smile and shake their head.
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DaveVoorhis
Addicted Member
If they're designing gear based on electronics, they'd agree with me. My "speculation" isn't experience-free, it's basic electronics.
There may be cases where the joules of energy stored in the filter capacitors are a reasonable basis for some comparison, but comparing a tube preamplifier to a solid-state power amplifier isn't one of them.
Obviously, they don't. LOL!
Looking up, rubbing your chin and pondering theory is but a starting point. All good designers use listening tests as the final arbiter.
Always. Experiment for yourself some day to understand.
They are merely two superlative examples of audio gear where the designer understands the value of ultra stiff power supplies.
Audio Research and Pass Labs (among others who understand this concept) have been making consistently top end gear for decades. Note the comments regarding the latest McIntosh amplifier.
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There is a gauge in the configurable cluster that provides real time G force in all four directions (lateral L-R, acceleration, braking).
Wifey normally drives the Boxster and has gamed the display on a 90 degree turn she always drives home from the university. She was so pleased when she got a full G.
As for spot welding, my preamp has but two of the large caps found in the REF10's power supply.
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ConradH
Lunatic Member
The car may be able to pull 1G all day, but I'd bet the tires give out well before lunchtime. Probably the wheel bearings too, if it uses those stupid non-adjustable "lifetime" bearing cartridges.
Fortunately my hearing is bad enough that, with properly designed circuitry and power/ground wiring, oversize power supplies have never been audible to me. At least when something fails, the resulting crater leaves no doubt as to what it was, though not necessarily the cause.
Fortunately my hearing is bad enough that, with properly designed circuitry and power/ground wiring, oversize power supplies have never been audible to me. At least when something fails, the resulting crater leaves no doubt as to what it was, though not necessarily the cause.
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