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DACs: Cheap vs Expensive

mozcho

mozcho

Well-Known Member
To my understanding, a DAC's main function is to convert digital signals from digital sources (CDP, PC, etc.) into analog signals to be amplified. This process should be taking place mainly inside a chip. My question is: why are there huge disparities among the DACs in the market today? How much does a DAC chip cost? Do prices directly affects the sound quality? To what extend does price matter? At what price point does the law of diminishing return kick in?

I am asking because I am new in this. I am looking to get a DAC to connect my PC to my Mac MC2205 because I have started to buy music in the lossless format and I intend to play them from my home PC feeding a DAC and then to my MC2205. I don't think I can afford a D150 kind of thing. Budget? Times are tight, maybe $100-200, can I get something good enough in this range?
 
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Hard one to answer, but the DAC chip is pretty cheap. Most of the money goes into the power supply, case, and output stage, and also additional features such as switches, displays, etc.

I'd probably get a Schiit Modi and call it a day. Try not to put much thought into it.
 
botrytis said:
That is the issue, for me, people think that digital is just throw a DAC in, any of them, and call it a day. One of the big fallacies of digital audio. Each DAC will have a slightly different sound and that depends on the USB system used and the analog output stage. The there are the ladder DAC's which use laddered resistors to do the conversion. There is also FPGA programmable chips that also can do the conversion in some DAC's.

Not all DAC's are created equally, nor are they meant to.
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The way I see it, 30-40 years ago this was a concern. These days we use DACs in everything. A compact disc has 44.1 khz of bandwith, but a boring standard definition DVD player has to decode nearly 4 megahertz worth of data, plus 5 or 6 channels of sound.

Now we have 4k video, and those DACs must render twice the framerate and 4-8 times the data just to make the screen work.

If we can do that, consistently, in a 400 dollar TV, I have no hesitation in saying that a DAC today can handle audio rate without really trying.

Just get a dac with a nice low noise ouput stage and it'll be fine.
 
gvl said:
It is true that a DAC cannot perform better than the chip it is based on. It, however, can perform much worse due to a variety of reasons. Head over to www.audiosciencereview.com and browse through DAC reviews, plenty of great DACs to choose from in your price range.
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Going to that fool's site is some of the worse advice that could be given to someone trying to understand digital. That's like shopping for advice on Redit or asking around Wal-Mart's automotive section for DAC advice. There is a reason that the so-called science site is so discredited.

Ranking devices by numbers is not how music is made. Music is when you play a song...then another song and forget to stop because you are totally captivated.

The sterile alternative that comes from focusing on one bench parameter is to start one song...then cut over to another cause you saw it in your play lists...then another...try turning it up...then down...and shortly remember you have something else to do. That's what buying based on a flawed ranking systems will buy you.

Look for music...not just numbers.

EV3
 
gvl said:
where mature members who can't hear above 13khz express their personal subjective opinions
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My hearing cuts out at 9K, but I can still hear a difference in the DAC's and cables I use. And, is there really anything wrong with stating, "I really like.....................because...........................?

evsentry3 said:
Ranking devices by numbers is not how music is made.
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The example I like to use is the difference between Yo Yo Ma and Zuill Bailey. Yo Yo plays everything perfectly. Zuill plays everything with passion. I like equipment that give me that sense of passion. Even if it doesn't spec as well as something else.
 
As far as Dac's go they are one of the components that paying more will usually get you more, as far as sound quality. But like any other component it's up to you to decide what is good enough for you. Reading someone's measurements won't help you very much in that. Your ears are more interested in hearing than reading numbers on a chart. If that $200 is your top price, there won't be a ton of choices.
 
"If that $200 is your top price, there won't be a ton of choices."

What year is this, 2000? You can get phenomenal DACs for well under $200. The DAC in an Apple headphone dongle has better measured performance of half these fancy audiophile resistor ladder whatever DACs. Just buy something cheap and spend the rest of the money on gear that actually matters, like amps or speakers.
 
botrytis said:
Bullshit. Really. Your opinion, I will respectfully disagree because I have said exactly that and was shown to be wrong. If they use the filters on the DAC chip or have there own, also, makes a huge difference.

As I said, that is YOUR opinion, not an actual reality. I am not talking expensive DAC's but there are more out there than SMSL, Schiit (which are 2 gens behind the times and why they are cheap). Buy what you want but if your digital playback sounds bad to you, it is more than likely your playback system is the culprit (change out the DAC).
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My digital playback has always sounded fine to me, I can still hear past 17k. I have probably listened to about 200 different DACs in my life and never had a single issue with any of them but one, and couldn't be bothered to tell one from another. I have only done one shootout with DACs, one a from a 1994 Panasonic MASH cd changer and a megabux Classe CD player and DAC. We had 2 copies of the same CD for proper to A/B, and sonically we couldn't tell them apart.

Output filters are still output stage, they don't count against a DAC chip which is why I brought up that the majority of the differences in a DAC, standalone or integrated, lay with the downstream components, which if competently designed, won't ruin anything.

The only DAC that I've heard that was different from the rest was one in a Lennox Sound brand diskman from 199X that said it had 4X oversampling. It was grainy. But it was supposed to be cheap crap.
 
rickb119 said:
My hearing cuts out at 9K, but I can still hear a difference in the DAC's and cables I use. And, is there really anything wrong with stating, "I really like.....................because...........................?
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That is fine, but let me guess you will not agree to do a proper blind test to confirm it, so what value your impressions have to others?
 
IME the analog output stage in a DAC is extremely important. My modest Topping D-10 sounds significantly better with a Sparkos discrete Op-amp over the OEM chip. It's USB powered. I connect mine to a powered USB (analog power supply) hub. I'm not sure if there's any difference using the hub. No matter. I already had it anyway.
 
If it's musical and the end user truly enjoys its sound....That Is All That should matter.
There is a lot of snake oil in the audiophile community, from both manufactures and end user's alike.
 
AlexHempel said:
"If that $200 is your top price, there won't be a ton of choices."

What year is this, 2000? You can get phenomenal DACs for well under $200. The DAC in an Apple headphone dongle has better measured performance of half these fancy audiophile resistor ladder whatever DACs. Just buy something cheap and spend the rest of the money on gear that actually matters, like amps or speakers.
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You seem to believe that amplification circuitry plays a role in sound quality, right?

But the analog amplification stage in a DAC does not?

I would suggest that power supply also plays a role in sound/sound quality.

Chipset? Not so much these days.
 
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rickb119 said:
My hearing cuts out at 9K, but I can still hear a difference in the DAC's and cables I use. And, is there really anything wrong with stating, "I really like.....................because...........................?



The example I like to use is the difference between Yo Yo Ma and Zuill Bailey. Yo Yo plays everything perfectly. Zuill plays everything with passion. I like equipment that give me that sense of passion. Even if it doesn't spec as well as something else.
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rickb119 nailed it. It is the emotion, not the numbers that capture you. Some equipment can capture the emotion, but others simply present the music, not in a bad way, but just not the best way in my opinion. I find this true especially with digital.
 
In modern DACs you can pretty much ignore the filters on the output, they don't do much. All filtering is done digital via DSP on the DAC chip in most cases prior to DA conversion.
 
Just buy a Topping E30 or a $99 Schitt Modi 3+. I have both and can't hear the difference between them. I also don't buy into the bullshit that people can actually hear a difference between audio interconnects, types of solder used, etc. Do an actual blind test where someone alternates between multiple cables of the same length and when done in a random order, I'd be curious as to how accurate the person guessing actually is. Obviously there is a difference between a 40 year old corroded cable and a brand new one or a 35 year old dried up electrolytic and a brand new one, but besides that, I question it.

As far as ASR goes, I like reading that site but it's strictly measurements, not actual hearing tests. I wear hearing aids and use an Schiit equalizer to make the sound suit my needs.
 
Hmm, didn't expect such a heated debate when I asked for a little help. Well I know this is the nature of this hobby.

Back to my situation, if you were to play lossless music files from the PC's hard drive thru a DAC connected via a USB port, I'd presume that the PC's sound card is not involved, right, or wrong? And, I intend to plug it straight into my MC2205 without a pre-amp, because the 2205 has it's own volume controls. Supposed one wants to connect the DAC into a pre-amp, then which one should get more cut of the budget, the DAC or the pre-amp? I know if money is not a concern, I'd buy high end in every component, but, for real world people, what is the wisest way to allocate the budget?

Actually, why don't you folks share with me your setup with some details?
 
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