DACs: Cheap vs Expensive

[ouimetnick]

Hmm, didn't expect such a heated debate when I asked for a little help. Well I know this is the nature of this hobby.

Back to my situation, if you were to play lossless music files from the PC's hard drive thru a DAC connected via a USB port, I'd presume that the PC's sound card is not involved, right, or wrong? And, I intend to plug it straight into my MC2205 without a pre-amp, because the 2205 has it's own volume controls. Supposed one wants to connect the DAC into a pre-amp, then which one should get more cut of the budget, the DAC or the pre-amp? I know if money is not a concern, I'd buy high end in every component, but, for real world people, what is the wisest way to allocate the budget?

Actually, why don't you folks share with me your setup with some details?

As of now, I have a AirPort Express connected via optical to the input on a Schiit Modi 3+ and I also connect my iPhone, iPad or Mac to a Topping E30 via USB. You’ll need a lightning camera connection kit from Apple to connect an iPhone or iPad with lightning connector to a DAC. Those DACs then connect to my preamp (currently using a Schiit Saga+) and that is connected to the power amp (Musical Concepts modded Hafler XL-280)

I don’t need 2 DACs, both the Topping E30 and Schiit Modi 3+ have a USB and optical (and coaxial input) that you can switch between. I like the fact that the Topping can be used as a preamp and has a remote. The Topping also has a display to tell you the input sample rate (44.1kHz, 48kHz, 96kHz, 192kHz)

Since the Schiit preamplifier has a remote, the adjustable output on the Topping is moot, so I changed it from “preamp” mode to “DAC” mode. The difference is the output level is fixed and the display shows the sample rate instead of the volume level.

The AirPort Express can only receive 16 bit/44.1kHz due to the limitations of AirPlay 2. I have higher res music that I play from my devices via USB to the Topping E30 or Schiit Modi 3+

 

[rwartner]

I think you need to consider the inputs and outputs. What connections do you need? What are you playing? OP says lossless from PC USB to DAC straight to amp. That is what I do. Actually there are 3 amps in the chain.
But Sony TA-N330ES is amp and has attenuator. I am going directly to it from the DAC.

My Maverick D1+ DAC has a volume control so it can be considered a preamp.

My thought is if you are playing lossless files - CD quality not hires. Then I would look for a USB DAC. Doesn't have to be the most expensive or tricky. You are trying to have the sound quality of a CD player with the convenience of computer jukebox.
I would consider connections. I would not go for a USB powered DAC.

As far as bypassing computer sound card the music software may be what you are looking for to do this. For instance I use JRiver.

 

[mozcho]

As of now, I have a AirPort Express connected via optical to the input on a Schiit Modi 3+ and I also connect my iPhone, iPad or Mac to a Topping E30 via USB. You’ll need a lightning camera connection kit from Apple to connect an iPhone or iPad with lightning connector to a DAC. Those DACs then connect to my preamp (currently using a Schiit Saga+) and that is connected to the power amp (Musical Concepts modded Hafler XL-280)

I don’t need 2 DACs, both the Topping E30 and Schiit Modi 3+ have a USB and optical (and coaxial input) that you can switch between. I like the fact that the Topping can be used as a preamp and has a remote. The Topping also has a display to tell you the input sample rate (44.1kHz, 48kHz, 96kHz, 192kHz)

Since the Schiit preamplifier has a remote, the adjustable output on the Topping is moot, so I changed it from “preamp” mode to “DAC” mode. The difference is the output level is fixed and the display shows the sample rate instead of the volume level.

The AirPort Express can only receive 16 bit/44.1kHz due to the limitations of AirPlay 2. I have higher res music that I play from my devices via USB to the Topping E30 or Schiit Modi 3+

Thanks. I have never used any optical cable, is it better than using the copper ones? In my scenario, there's no place for optical (unless it is from PC to DAC?).

 

[mozcho]

I think you need to consider the inputs and outputs. What connections do you need? What are you playing? OP says lossless from PC USB to DAC straight to amp. That is what I do. Actually there are 3 amps in the chain.
But Sony TA-N330ES is amp and has attenuator. I am going directly to it from the DAC.

My Maverick D1+ DAC has a volume control so it can be considered a preamp.

My thought is if you are playing lossless files - CD quality not hires. Then I would look for a USB DAC. Doesn't have to be the most expensive or tricky. You are trying to have the sound quality of a CD player with the convenience of computer jukebox.
I would consider connections. I would not go for a USB powered DAC.

As far as bypassing computer sound card the music software may be what you are looking for to do this. For instance I use JRiver.

The Maverick is a tube DAC? Cool. The 2205 is known to being warm, would it be a good pairing, or "too warm"?
Hi-res, is it anything higher than 16/44.1?
As for powering the DAC, I'll look for one with it's own power supply/plug.
Software wise, I'm using foobar2000. Never tried JRiver before.

 

[ouimetnick]

I believe the only advantage with optical over coaxial SPDIF is you can avoid ground loops, RF and electromagnetic interference.

Also “High Res” audio is anything over 16-bit/44.1kHz. So 24-bit/48kHz, 24-bit/88.2kHz, 24-bit/96kHz, 24-bit/192kHz, etc are all “high-res”

Whether or not you can actually hear a difference between any of them is a whole other debate.

I think a properly engineered DAC makes a bigger difference compared to the cost saving DAC found in a computer or other device, even if it’s a 16-bit/44.1kHz file.

 

[Alexander W]

I have Maverick Audio Tube Magic DAC's in my office (D1) and my shop (D2). I'm quite happy with them and I like the fact that I can swap out tubes and op amps to tweak them a bit. I've recommended them to several friends and have had no complaints. In addition their customer service is outstanding.

 

[Markoneswift]

Hmm, didn't expect such a heated debate when I asked for a little help. Well I know this is the nature of this hobby.

Back to my situation, if you were to play lossless music files from the PC's hard drive thru a DAC connected via a USB port, I'd presume that the PC's sound card is not involved, right, or wrong? And, I intend to plug it straight into my MC2205 without a pre-amp, because the 2205 has it's own volume controls. Supposed one wants to connect the DAC into a pre-amp, then which one should get more cut of the budget, the DAC or the pre-amp? I know if money is not a concern, I'd buy high end in every component, but, for real world people, what is the wisest way to allocate the budget?

Actually, why don't you folks share with me your setup with some details?

PC via USB DAC - soundcard is not involved at all. Correct.
DAC into preamp - for me, preamp gets the biggest share of the $$$
My setup? Sure - Raspberry Pi 4b with Pifi DAC+ 2.0 HAT board running Volumio. The Pifi outputs via standard 2 x RCA and sounds excellent. Volumio is a full OS for the Pi so it can hook up to your Spotify account and also play local media from USB drives or DNLA / UPNP servers.

HTH.

 

[sqlsavior]

I've used a Dragonfly (v1.2), and a Musical Fidelity V90DAC with laptops. But my last desktop had 5.1 on the motherboard, and included a stereo line-in with ADC (opposite of DAC) i.e. record capability. Some PCs are pretty capable.

But, I think I would want a DAC with a volume control, unless you are already used to turning both gain knobs on your power amp at once for controlling your volume now. Even that would be better than software volume controls though.

 

[AlTinkster92]

Bought a Schitt Modi 3 a couple years ago and never looked back. Works great on Fishers, Mac gear and single ended... Best 99 bucks I ever spent. My 2 cents...

 

[rwartner]

When I got into DACs I got excited about it. Thought I should go optical to take advantage of higher resolution capability of the DAC. Laptop doesn't have optical out so got USB to optical converter which was very nice. Then I realized that I didn't have any hi-res files. Optical didn't sound any better. So I was dumb. But I know better now. USB works fine.

 

[JoeESP9]

With a capable DAC USB has worked for every file type I've tried. That includes MP3, WAV, PCM to 24/192 and dsd/dsf files to 512. I can't comment about MQA as I refuse to buy into any propriety file type.

 

[Gazdatronik]

Yes and yes. Most filters are based on sampling rate, 48 KHz file will be rolled off at 24KHz, etc. So, yes, they are done in or during the D to A step. MQA is more so, since it is lossy when encoding.

Are you then speaking of deliberate resampling? For instance if source material has more info than the DAC can interpret?

If thats the case, and I work with that from time to time in music production, then one must choose a DAC that can handle multiple rates, and as high as possible without interpolation. I didn't say that up front, but its implied. My computer workstation, which is a bit ancient by now(2002) can play back up to 32 bit 96khz files but the DAC itself is only capable of 24 bit max, so there is some software throttling. It sounds great, but no better than what the DAC can do natively.

I figured by now that we had gotten past the cost/speed barrier and that outboard DACs could truly reproduce the content natively up to what they advertise, but from what you say, some don't, and instead downsample and feed it into a lesser chip.

One could say that its cost effective because then you would only need one static output filter, no matter what the source.

This is something to indeed look out for.

As for resistor ladder DAC's its a cool idea but they are really hard to build and get right.

 

[JoeESP9]

@Gazdatronik
What's your opinion on Ring DAC's or FPGA applications?

 

[ouimetnick]

Never been proven - just audiophile 'magic' there. A well designed DAC, does not allow computer noise through. SPDIF actually PRODUCES more noise than USB, that has been proven over and over, but y'all still hawk that nonsense.

What audiophile magic? I agree that a properly designed USB implementation should be noice free, but how does fiber optic allow noise? I know some older Schiit Modi DACs allowed noise via USB (it was measurable, but I’m doubt one could actually discern anything with their own ears.)

 

[David_NC]

To my understanding, a DAC's main function is to convert digital signals from digital sources (CDP, PC, etc.) into analog signals to be amplified. This process should be taking place mainly inside a chip. My question is: why are there huge disparities among the DACs in the market today? How much does a DAC chip cost? Do prices directly affects the sound quality? To what extend does price matter? At what price point does the law of diminishing return kick in?

I am asking because I am new in this. I am looking to get a DAC to connect my PC to my Mac MC2205 because I have started to buy music in the lossless format and I intend to play them from my home PC feeding a DAC and then to my MC2205. I don't think I can afford a D150 kind of thing. Budget? Times are tight, maybe $100-200, can I get something good enough in this range?

I have a Topping D30 on one system and an E30 on another. I prefer the E30, but there's not a huge difference. The E30 has a remote and volume control, which might be useful. Mine are used with USB input about 95% of the time - one with an iPhone / iPad and the other with an old Windows 10 PC.
I've never had any complaints or issues with either, and I still get goosebumps from certain songs played on multiple systems using those DACs. I can swap out components in those systems, including those DACs, and whatever it is that gives me chills and goosebumps is missing. That indicates to me that these DACs (and other equipment) are decent enough to let the good sounds through, which is exactly what I'd expect and want from them.
Four friends have purchased E30's after using mine, so it doesn't seem that my experiences are unique. Take into account the relatively low prices of these DACs, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them.

 

[E-Stat]

What audiophile magic? I agree that a properly designed USB implementation should be noice free, but how does fiber optic allow noise? I know some older Schiit Modi DACs allowed noise via USB (it was measurable, but I’m doubt one could actually discern anything with their own ears.)

A well implemented S/PDIF interface/cable has low noise IMHO. I enjoy an Allo DigiOne hat with RPi3 in the garage system using a 2M DH Labs BNC to coaxial cable and battery supply. While optical, aka Toshiba Toslink is galvanically isolated from noise, the very specification implies a huge amount of jitter (4 ns) as measured in nano - no picoseconds. No joy.

I will be the first to admit, however, that my best system uses an Audio Research DAC8 via USB feeding a Sonore ultraRendu which contains a reclocker to reduce noise and is powered by alternating banks of ultracapacitors that are completely isolated from the AC.

 

[gvl]

Are you then speaking of deliberate resampling? For instance if source material has more info than the DAC can interpret?

The filter must suppress as much energy as possible above the Nyquist frequency which is half of the sampling rate. So for 48khz sampling the filter must cut off everything (ideally) above 24khz. Modern DACs do it digitally by upsampling and filtering out ultrasonic content above Nyquist via DSP that is typically a part of the DAC chip, it happens before the actual DA conversion takes place.

 

[NH-MAN]

Wait...filters before the D to A?
Does it get rid of some of the zeros and ones?

3 different years, models of I phone using the same camera adapter on each (the adapter does the conversion) all three sound differnt (confirmed also by my GF) so yes zeros and ones can sound different before conversion.

 

[Gazdatronik]

The filter must suppress as much energy as possible above the Nyquist frequency which is half of the sampling rate. So for 48khz sampling the filter must cut off everything (ideally) above 24khz. Modern DACs do it digitally by upsampling and filtering out ultrasonic content above Nyquist via DSP that is typically a part of the DAC chip, it happens before the actual DA conversion takes place.

I suppose then, my only question is, why bother with higher sampling rates at all if they are just going to be removed anyway?

In the music production world, the high sampling rates and 32 bit stuff came out to ease the burden on producers, in that theoretically so much data was being recorded, you could run the levels about half what you would normally while keeping the noise floor low so by the time it was bounced to a 16 bit master, you wouldn't have lost any resolution.

Methinks when this technology trickled down to the audiophile crowd, while the extra bandwidth was appealing on paper, it was useless in real life above 24 khz. But we just had to have it, so we made it work.

If 24khz is the universally accepted frequency limit, then anything over a 48khz sample rate is a waste. Fine, I can see that.

So perhaps the real sell here is having 32 bits of resolution to play with. This helps lower the noise floor. The 24khz cap is sensible as most loudspeakers can't play it and most ears can't hear it. Having more finite amplitude control over what the speakers can reproduce will yield a better result.

My takeaway from all this then, is that the gains from hi-res audio have mostly to do with when the music is quiet rather than when its pegging the meter. The louder it is, the less bit depth you need.

 

[whell]

Gents - I think it would be awesome to use this thread to respond to the OP's question. Suggestion: debates about digital theory might be better staged in a different thread.

Back to the OP's questions:

Hmm, didn't expect such a heated debate when I asked for a little help. Well I know this is the nature of this hobby.

Back to my situation, if you were to play lossless music files from the PC's hard drive thru a DAC connected via a USB port, I'd presume that the PC's sound card is not involved, right, or wrong? And, I intend to plug it straight into my MC2205 without a pre-amp, because the 2205 has it's own volume controls. Supposed one wants to connect the DAC into a pre-amp, then which one should get more cut of the budget, the DAC or the pre-amp? I know if money is not a concern, I'd buy high end in every component, but, for real world people, what is the wisest way to allocate the budget?

Actually, why don't you folks share with me your setup with some details?

That's correct. The PC's sound card would not be used in the scenario above.

You probably generated a diversity of responses in this thread because in PC audio / streaming, there as many options for your setup as there are stars in the sky. Not only have DAC manufacturers responded to the increasing demand for USB capable DAC's by flooding the marketplace with a mind-blowing number of options for folks interested in purchasing a DAC, but software manufacturers have also responded with a diversity of software products. So, some research beyond this thread is likely going to be your friend here. In other words, your decision - making might not be limited to which DAC to buy, but also:

• How are you going to create / buy / rip / store your music files?
• How are you going to move those files from a drive to the PC (will the files be stored on a network attached storage (NAS) device, or will the drive be plugged into the DAC)?
• What playback device will you use? Do you already have a laptop / PC on hand that will be repurposed for playback, or will you be purchasing a device?
• If purchasing a device (you might not need much of a PC for this purpose depending on how you use it, but whatever you use should be quiet if it'll be in the listening area, and some desktops and even some laptops can have audible fan noise), what's the budget? You also have a range of choices here, from a small form factor fanless device to an old beater desktop that you might find at a thrift shop.
• Will you be using the PC for controlling playback, or would your preference be a "headless" setup where the PC sits by itself somewhere, and playback is controlled by a device like a tablet / smartphone or separate laptop?

And in between these questions, there are many options and decision points, all of which have the potential to impact sound quality an budget allocation.

I'm probably - maybe like you - in the real world with budget, so here's what I've done:

- I don't buy gear new, so I browse audio sites (after doing my homework) for the best gear I can afford within my budget. This may also require some patience waiting for your preferred gear to hit the used market.
- You've already got a preamp, so my choice for DAC might not be ideal for your situation. I purchased a used Benchmark DAC 2 which can be used as a pre and a DAC. I love it.
- Incidentally - since I've been doing PC audio for a while - I also have the original USB DAC I purchased about 10 years or so ago: an Antelope Zodiac DAC, which was very well regarded when I purchased back then. Does it sound different from the Benchmark? Absolutely yes. Do I have a preference? While I have loved the Zodiac for many years, I must admit I like the Benchmark better for most (but not all) types of music. The Benchmark creates a wider / deeper soundstage, but for more intimately recorded music (jazz or folk) the Zodiac has its advantages. What does this mean? Your choice of DAC might be influenced by what type of music you listen to the most. Yet another decision point.
- I used to use the PC for playback, and have a USB drive plugged into the PC. This is probably the easiest way to get started.
- I now use a purpose built operating system (the operating system can replace Windows on your PC) for the laptop called Daphile (I'm also playing around with Volumio at the moment) to support a headless setup.

Hope that info helps, and also demonstrates that there are a universe of options. Homework is helpful, but "analysis paralysis" need not prevent you from jumping in. Many of us started with modest setups which have evolved over time. So, make some well informed decisions that suit your needs, and jump in!