Not sure I understand, you do get more frequency range on higher sampling rates, it's 96khz for 192khz sampling vs. 24khz for 48khz sampling. May not matter audibly however.
Not sure I understand, you do get more frequency range on higher sampling rates, it's 96khz for 192khz sampling vs. 24khz for 48khz sampling. May not matter audibly however.
Gazdatronik
Super Member
Oh, ok. As I was tracking, it was sounding like ALL rates were choked down to 24k in the end.
See, all this is new to me, my vintage samplers and olde DACs don't have input filters, and you can experiment with sampling rates down to almost nothing. You get to hear every imperfection down to the granular level.
If you're willing to DIY, try a Khadis Tone Board. To satisfy the bits is bits, it measures very well on the ASR forum. To satisfy the "all DACs are the same so buy the cheapest" crowd it's only a hundred bucks. It beat the crap out of my Modi MB, my SMSL SU-8, and the onboard DAC on my Peachtree Nova 150.
We can all learn new things here. Like, I never knew that, like most elected officials, DAC's had crap in them too.
mozcho
Well-Known Member
Thanks a lot for your very detailed reply. Some additions from me:Gents - I think it would be awesome to use this thread to respond to the OP's question. Suggestion: debates about digital theory might be better staged in a different thread.
Back to the OP's questions:
That's correct. The PC's sound card would not be used in the scenario above.
You probably generated a diversity of responses in this thread because in PC audio / streaming, there as many options for your setup as there are stars in the sky. Not only have DAC manufacturers responded to the increasing demand for USB capable DAC's by flooding the marketplace with a mind-blowing number of options for folks interested in purchasing a DAC, but software manufacturers have also responded with a diversity of software products. So, some research beyond this thread is likely going to be your friend here. In other words, your decision - making might not be limited to which DAC to buy, but also:
And in between these questions, there are many options and decision points, all of which have the potential to impact sound quality an budget allocation.
- How are you going to create / buy / rip / store your music files?
- How are you going to move those files from a drive to the PC (will the files be stored on a network attached storage (NAS) device, or will the drive be plugged into the DAC)?
- What playback device will you use? Do you already have a laptop / PC on hand that will be repurposed for playback, or will you be purchasing a device?
- If purchasing a device (you might not need much of a PC for this purpose depending on how you use it, but whatever you use should be quiet if it'll be in the listening area, and some desktops and even some laptops can have audible fan noise), what's the budget? You also have a range of choices here, from a small form factor fanless device to an old beater desktop that you might find at a thrift shop.
- Will you be using the PC for controlling playback, or would your preference be a "headless" setup where the PC sits by itself somewhere, and playback is controlled by a device like a tablet / smartphone or separate laptop?
I'm probably - maybe like you - in the real world with budget, so here's what I've done:
- I don't buy gear new, so I browse audio sites (after doing my homework) for the best gear I can afford within my budget. This may also require some patience waiting for your preferred gear to hit the used market.
- You've already got a preamp, so my choice for DAC might not be ideal for your situation. I purchased a used Benchmark DAC 2 which can be used as a pre and a DAC. I love it.
- Incidentally - since I've been doing PC audio for a while - I also have the original USB DAC I purchased about 10 years or so ago: an Antelope Zodiac DAC, which was very well regarded when I purchased back then. Does it sound different from the Benchmark? Absolutely yes. Do I have a preference? While I have loved the Zodiac for many years, I must admit I like the Benchmark better for most (but not all) types of music. The Benchmark creates a wider / deeper soundstage, but for more intimately recorded music (jazz or folk) the Zodiac has its advantages. What does this mean? Your choice of DAC might be influenced by what type of music you listen to the most. Yet another decision point.
- I used to use the PC for playback, and have a USB drive plugged into the PC. This is probably the easiest way to get started.
- I now use a purpose built operating system (the operating system can replace Windows on your PC) for the laptop called Daphile (I'm also playing around with Volumio at the moment) to support a headless setup.
Hope that info helps, and also demonstrates that there are a universe of options. Homework is helpful, but "analysis paralysis" need not prevent you from jumping in. Many of us started with modest setups which have evolved over time. So, make some well informed decisions that suit your needs, and jump in!
Currently am using
* desktop PC (Linux Manjaro) as my player, using the Audacious software
* MUSE X5 PCM2704 USB DAC DIGITAL ANALOGUE CONVERTER HEADPHONE AMPLIFIER
* MC2205 power amp
* JBL L110 speakers
I know the DAC is the weakest link now, that's why this post.
- I plan to use an old Lenovo laptop (i5 based) as my player.
- I also have an Intel Computer Stick (Win 8.1) idling around, wondering if it can be applicable here.
- All the files that are ripped/bought/downloaded will be stored on the hdd on the laptop, and also on an ext. hdd. No plan to use NAS yet.
- Not on any streaming services yet, but won't rule this out in future.
- I don't have a pre-amp yet, I feed the 2205 directly by the DAC amp.
I am also a sucker for used gears, all my amps and speakers were bought used at very reasonable prices.
From the replies so far, looks like the Topping E30 fits my budget range. There is also a used D50s for sale near me and priced about the same as a new E30. Well, I don't want to hurry. If I'm convinced that moving to the $400 range would bring me very significant improvement in sound, I think I can accommodate that.
mozcho
Well-Known Member
I did a search on this, it seems it has to be powered by USB, would it be a minus point?
If you're in the $400 range, you might consider something like this:
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_252PBS2DS/Pro-Ject-Pre-Box-S2-Digital-Silver.html?cc=07&tp=60845
It’s an open box/ scratch and dent but has full mfg warranty. It has everything you need and more. I wouldn’t get at all excited about MQA support, but the dual mono ESS Sabre DAC chips get me jazzed, plus preamp capabilities and remote control.
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_252PBS2DS/Pro-Ject-Pre-Box-S2-Digital-Silver.html?cc=07&tp=60845
It’s an open box/ scratch and dent but has full mfg warranty. It has everything you need and more. I wouldn’t get at all excited about MQA support, but the dual mono ESS Sabre DAC chips get me jazzed, plus preamp capabilities and remote control.
Not necessarily. All inexpensive unbalanced DACs are susceptible to ground loop issues, USB powered or not. If you have a bad ground loop you'll hear it. The pollution usually happens thorough the ground conductor. As for the USB power itself it's usually well filtered and re-regulated inside the DAC, so it's less of an issue. Khadas tone Board has a SPDIF input too, so you could power it from a clean 5V supply and use a SPDIF source.
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Gazdatronik
Super Member
Honestly, I don't have one. None of my old crap uses them.
David_NC
Super Member
I wonder if the different generations of iPhones, apps used to stream or play music, and iOS versions could be the cause. It would be interesting to know which iDevices and iOS can play at higher bit rates, for example. My old 6S and current 8+ don't sound different, though. This is with the same adapter and DAC, iOS version, and Amazon HD as the source. My 6S is basically the streaming source for one system now. My very old 5 is so slow that it's almost painful to use now, so I don't recall how it did.
mozcho
Well-Known Member
Too bad I'm not located in the US, my place is Malaysia
so I'll have to shop around in my region.Me too don't really care about the MQA stuff. To me, the various DSD formats and even those flac/ape files are good enough for me, at least in my current setup I can't hear any obvious differences, maybe that'll change after the upgrade?
mozcho
Well-Known Member
Another thing pops up my mind: since I don't have a pre-amp now, if I want to get a pre-amp, should I spend all the money to get a good pre-amp with a good DAC in it, or should I go separates (which means the money will be spreaded and the total cost will increase, since now money will be spent on two output stages and two power supplies)?
mozcho
Well-Known Member
If not because I also have a turntable, I might not be bothered by the need for a pre-amp. Currently when I need to play vinyl, I hook up the TT to a vintage Marantz 1060's phono input, and then to the MC2205. I'm not connecting the DAC to the 1060 but instead directly to the 2205, hoping to get a more pure sound.
And for completeness, you can also control volume on your player app, so technically you can get away with a simple DAC that has no volume control. It is however an accident waiting to happen as if volume somehow gets set to maximum in your player it can damage your speakers, ears, or both.
ouimetnick
Hafler Fan!
I have two E30s (one black and one silver) and a Schiit Modi 3+. I have one E30 in preamp mode (connected directly to an amp) and use the remote to adjust volume, and another in DAC mode connected to a Schiit Saga+. Great little unit. Can't really hear a difference between the Topping E30 and Schiit Modi 3+, but I appreciate the display that indicates the sample rate of the audio since some of the music is high res. Can't recommend the E30 or Modi 3+ enough (depending on the needs.. both are excellent)
I am in the same boat dude. Check out the M500 or something like that, or one of Schiit's DACs.
I am so new to the "digital" format I am just bloody confused. I really like analog and I find it funny that so many DAC's out there are trying to get the digital as close to "sounding" analog.
I am not very computer savvy, and for my first streamer, I am looking in the BlueSound. Something basic just to see it I am going to enjoy the experience. Frankly, I don't mind the sound of CD's or even LP's. I don't like the idea of a streaming platform suggesting what other artists I may like based on my past play lists. I know people who said that after they made a play list and decided to hear something outside their norm, the service suggested all these other artists that totally jacked up their original play list. This sound just like a nightmare!
Furthermore, I like a lot of jazz and "hard to find" artists like Zappa, or Tool and I know a lot of those streaming platforms don't have All the artists out there. For example, Tool has None, Nada, zip of their songs on any platform because the Choose to. I love this! Buy the LP. Buy the CD. Give the musicians their deserved compensations.
benricci
Super Member
1.Literally no service alters your playlist (or "jacks up" as you put it) based on other artists it suggests to you. Any playlist you create, on any service, is only editable by you the subscriber. Suggestions are separate and while most people probably find them helpful, can simply be ignored without changing any music you've added to your library or any playlists you've curated on your own.
2. I'm streaming Tool in 24-bit lossless on Apple Music right now, so I'm not sure what you're on about there....Likewise, I can clearly see dozens of lossless Zappa albums currently available to stream on Apple Music, as well. Have you actually looked into any of the catalogs available on streaming? You may be surprised at how vast some of them are.
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