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DACs: Cheap vs Expensive

Mart Mccall said:
I am not aware of any mechanism by which a DAC can affect soundstage. Soundstage is a combination of what is encoded on the recording, the loudspeakers, the room, and the position of the loudspeakers in the room.
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Having been developing DACs for a decade or more the noise level in the DAC's analog stage has an effect on the soundstage (both depth and width). For example swapping from an AD829 (2nV/rtHz noise) to an LT1028 (1nV/rtHz) in my DAC's I/V stage substantially improved the soundstage width and slightly improved the depth.
 
Yes that's also my experience. Because that's often the bottleneck in a DAC's performance. But its possible to engineer a DAC where the analog stage is better (i.e. lower noise) than the DAC chip - then there can be sonic advantage in paralleling DAC chips to get even lower noise.
 
xdd said:
Having been developing DACs for a decade or more the noise level in the DAC's analog stage has an effect on the soundstage (both depth and width). For example swapping from an AD829 (2nV/rtHz noise) to an LT1028 (1nV/rtHz) in my DAC's I/V stage substantially improved the soundstage width and slightly improved the depth.
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what levels of signal to noise ratio are we talking about though? Even a 1980s CD player has 90dB SNR. To me that's not audible levels of noise but I'm guessing you think differently.
 
Good question - I'm talking about SNRs considerably better than the theoretical limit on the CD itself (which is about 92dB). Which greatly surprised me at first - when I started out designing I/V stages I figured just 6 or 10dB better than the CD (so around -100dB) would be sufficient. But that turned out to be quite a mistaken assumption.
 
I would be happy to participate in a "Great Midwestern DAC Fest." I cannot host. But I would bring my $100 DAC. We could listen to several DAC's - blind in the morning, while drinking coffee, sighted in the afternoon, while drinking beer, wine or bourbon. Besides my cheap DAC I would bring more beer or wine than I planned to consume. And coffee - I can and will make coffee via French press, pour over, vacuum device or using an ancient Revere Ware drip machine.

I am happy to do this masked or unmasked.
 
I have two USB DAC's. I can switch back and forth between the two with the remote while listening to the same music played back from my PC. All I can say is that they both sound great, but there are subtle differences in sound that are easily distinguishable when switching back and forth. USB A is older but still USB and 24-192 capable. USB B is newer, and can do DSD - but I don't have any DSD content. Both were $1000 + DAC's when they were new.

Is one "better" than the other? Do I have a preference for one over the other? Sometimes. Sometimes I prefer DAC A, and sometimes DAC B. I'm thinking this might be due to the type of music I'm listening to.

But do they sound different? Very definitely, yes.
 
DAC output voltage can vary across units making them appear to sound different. One needs to verify output voltages are the same and level match if they are not before making comparisons.
 
gvl said:
Such claim is worthless without an experiment that establishes that people can actually recognize the differences, because if they can’t then their preference is not based on anything and not better than random.
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Quick story: on another audio forum two members with opposing views on DAC audibility decided to work together to conduct a test. Double-blind blah blah blah. They walked through their methodology and the setup. People chimed in. The usual arguments going on the whole time as to whether differences would be heard, etc.

Finally, the day came and the two members performed the test. The results: the listener could indeed differentiate. The skeptic who ran the test admitted he couldn't explain it and went over the process thoroughly. Both members approached the situation amicably.

Guess what: no one cared. The forum members on both sides of the debate basically ignored all the work and the results and proceeded to arguing amongst themselves just as before.

Lots of folks act like they want to really get to the bottom of these 'controversial' audiophile questions - but they don't. They just want an excuse to throw their opinion around and argue.
 
At least they tried. Most of those who claim they can hear all sorts of differences don’t bother or don’t do it properly.
 
gvl said:
DAC output voltage can vary across units making them appear to sound different. One needs to verify output voltages are the same and level match if they are not before making comparisons.
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Yup, checked that box. But even if I didn't, the difference is still pretty obvious.
 
wushuliu said:
Guess what: no one cared. The forum members on both sides of the debate basically ignored all the work and the results and proceeded to arguing amongst themselves just as before.

Lots of folks act like they want to really get to the bottom of these 'controversial' audiophile questions - but they don't. They just want an excuse to throw their opinion around and argue.
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Yup. Once someone takes a position on a public forum, they tend not to want to appear "wrong", when its not even about being right or wrong.

I still can't hear a difference between cable A and cable B, and I honestly suspect there's not a difference, but I respect the opinion of folks who can hear a difference.
 
whell said:
Yup, checked that box. But even if I didn't, the difference is still pretty obvious.
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Sometimes a difference between two DACs is that the comfortable volume setting is different for each. Not saying level matching is unimportant but its not the only way to reveal differences between DACs.
 
xdd said:
Sometimes a difference between two DACs is that the comfortable volume setting is different for each. Not saying level matching is unimportant but its not the only way to reveal differences between DACs.
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That's a fact. And, sometimes the difference between two DAC's is that they just....sound different. :rockon:
 
Pondoro said:
I would be happy to participate in a "Great Midwestern DAC Fest." I cannot host. But I would bring my $100 DAC. We could listen to several DAC's - blind in the morning, while drinking coffee, sighted in the afternoon, while drinking beer, wine or bourbon. Besides my cheap DAC I would bring more beer or wine than I planned to consume. And coffee - I can and will make coffee via French press, pour over, vacuum device or using an ancient Revere Ware drip machine.

I am happy to do this masked or unmasked.
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Most civilized idea I've seen in this post, lol -- you are truly a gentleman. I'd love to, but there aren't so many of us up here on the West coast. Heard a lot of DACs, but haven't heard much difference between any of them; that's the whole purpose of a DAC, to reproduce faithfully. Why would anyone want a DAC to have a sound? Love to have a nice gathering, bring a few DACs , see if anyone can tell what's what.

I try not to get too hung up on the gear, it's just there to play the music I like.
 
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