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DACs: Cheap vs Expensive

Electronician. A guy who does electronics. A guy who would work on transmission systems for the Air Force. things of that nature

I'm in Europe

I knew what you meant. I also figured you live in Europe. In English Electronic Technician are the words used. :)

FWIW: I'm a retired Electrical Engineer. I'm also a USAF veteran and a military brat who lived in Europe for a number of years because my dad was stationed there. :D
 
Turns out for the price of an Ares II, (about 800e), you can get a Yamaha ca-800 (400e), Tannoy M3(200e), and Streaming Dongle(100e) and it will sound 10 times better than any amp worth 3000e associated with the Ares. So, the delta in performance for Dacs relative to the price Delta is as close as you can get to snake oil. It does make a difference but no need to spend ridiculous amounts or stress over which chip is used, linear power suplly....that's all marketing speak to separate you from your money. The v90 uses an old Burr-brown chip, cost 150e used and it's just great
I'll take an old Burr-Brown over a new ESS any day except when it comes to really small items such as one of those rare "audiophile" cell phones where an innovative enterprising electronics manufacturer, LG not to name it, gambled that some people would rather spend their money on sound rather than sight so forego the fancy quadruple-lens, bi-turbo zoom and amoled display favored by the likes of Apple and Samsung and instead asked ESS and BB what sort of performance could they achieve installing a high-performance DAC and assorted paraphernalia within the confines of a handset that should be no larger and, most important, be slimmer than a Samsung S9's with its 6-inch display. BB declined saying they couldn't do it in such a slim case as it would require an all-digital environment and ESS said they could fit their new "Quad DAC" Sabre model chip in there if LG stretched the display to 6.1 inch. The QD is actually four small DAC chips summed into one. Deal done, the very nice sounding (for a phone) LG G7 flagship saw the light of day a few months later. I still use mine to this day because nobody has come up with a better sounding phone since.

With that being said ESS may be good at miniaturizing decent sound but a BB chip mounted on a discrete analog board has a much warmer, rich sounding performance as illustrated by its performance in the Zen series by iFi, imho the best sounding headphone desktop stack under $1,000 all options included. You don't HAVE to use the iFi $189 linear PSU to power the amp but I'd strongly advise using their $79 model which is quiet as a grave despite its non-linearity, while the DAC nicely makes do with the USB-supplied 5v provided you have a well insulated motherboard and powerful (ie quiet) PSU.
 
Well, it doesn't stink. In fact I'm shocked at how good the fit and finish is and how good it sounds.
It was definitely worth the $200 gamble.
I find that fit and finish on Chinese-made audio has been way above Western standards over the last 10 years or so, They appear to be using materials and machining techniques on most of their stuff that we keep that for high-end here. Much like the Japanese did in the 70's... and still do but it comes at a very high price. Is that evidence of quality? Not sure, after all NAD's plastic sounded good all the same. Still sounds good but ever since NAD moved to Canada it seems that they concentrate on pricey high-end materials like exotic wood veneers and cast aluminum knobs... and hefty price tags
 
Well, it doesn't stink. In fact I'm shocked at how good the fit and finish is and how good it sounds.
It was definitely worth the $200 gamble.

Based on that statement .. I ordered one ..
I've been looking for the next real step up without breaking the budget and It seems that you found it ..
It's here, but I'm waiting for the hardware to connect it .. looking forward to listening to it ..
 
I still use mine to this day because nobody has come up with a better sounding phone since.

Maybe not since, not even Apple, but my 5s did sounded excellent until apple decided I must need a new one by now. the 8 something that replaced it wasn't even close. I use an old Galaxy S5 my gf had laying around thats close but my 5S was still better and sounded as good as the same CD played at home.

they won't drive any of my amps to full power though.
 
Based on that statement .. I ordered one ..
I've been looking for the next real step up without breaking the budget and It seems that you found it ..
It's here, but I'm waiting for the hardware to connect it .. looking forward to listening to it ..
I hope you like like it and it works out well in your system.
 
Maybe not since, not even Apple, but my 5s did sounded excellent until apple decided I must need a new one by now. the 8 something that replaced it wasn't even close. I use an old Galaxy S5 my gf had laying around thats close but my 5S was still better and sounded as good as the same CD played at home.

they won't drive any of my amps to full power though.
Had a 5S and a 6S (7 in disguise, the 6S had nothing to do with the 6) that I suspect had the same DAC because the sounded the same. They were excellent but not quite to the G7's level. The G&'s DAC had an odd limitation though, it wouldn't kick in if headphones connected to the phone's jack had below 50-ohm impedance with LG stating a lower load was "too unstable" to reliably power with a tiny amplifier. I used 80-ohm phones so no problem but friends with near-nil impedance phones had to use gimmicky line impedance boosters I wouldn't be caught dead relying on. Can't tell if that was a problem with the Apples since I never used low-impedance loads on them either. As for external amps the G7 had no problems, just use a good quality Y-cable at line level and it played like a CD player would only sounded better than a consumer-grade one would. You need to keep the charger plugged in when you do that.
 
I hope you like like it and it works out well in your system.

Even right out of the box .. (though it has been on but without a signal for a couple of days)
Open airy highs.. Beautiful liquid midrange ..
Lost a bit of bass definition, but there's a cost to everything I suppose ..
 
Even right out of the box .. (though it has been on but without a signal for a couple of days)
Open airy highs.. Beautiful liquid midrange ..
Lost a bit of bass definition, but there's a cost to everything I suppose ..
I ran mine for 24/7 for a week. I leave mine on 24/7 too and in my opinion it takes about 30 minutes after I start playing music to really start sounding good. All in all a pretty surprising DAC for the money.
I have a new toy coming that I found on ebay for $60, a Pro-ject Dac Box. FL. I've never owned one of these.
 
I ran mine for 24/7 for a week. I leave mine on 24/7 too and in my opinion it takes about 30 minutes after I start playing music to really start sounding good. All in all a pretty surprising DAC for the money.
I have a new toy coming that I found on ebay for $60, a Pro-ject Dac Box. FL. I've never owned one of these.

Enjoy ..
I'm staying out of the DAC rabbit hole for a while ...
They're all different one from another ..

And as satisfying as the midrange of this DAC is, I miss my bass definition .. which admittedly is way important in my scheme of things ..
Bass definition is the reason I use sealed box Acoustic Suspension speakers ..
 
Enjoy ..
I'm staying out of the DAC rabbit hole for a while ...
They're all different one from another ..

And as satisfying as the midrange of this DAC is, I miss my bass definition .. which admittedly is way important in my scheme of things ..
Bass definition is the reason I use sealed box Acoustic Suspension speakers ..
Most of my listening is done with headphones. I still have a pair of refurbished KLH Model 5 speakers manufactured in 1968 that i love. I sold my New Large Advents, AR-2ax, and AR-4ax speakers before an out of state move 3 years ago. Love the "east coast" speakers.
Anyway Head-Fi is fun and I can pack up my headphone amps, DACs, headphones, and CD transport easily if I decide to move again to try out a new state since I'm retired.
Edgar Villchur and Henry Kloss are my heros ;)
 
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Enjoy ..
I'm staying out of the DAC rabbit hole for a while ...
They're all different one from another ..

And as satisfying as the midrange of this DAC is, I miss my bass definition .. which admittedly is way important in my scheme of things ..
Bass definition is the reason I use sealed box Acoustic Suspension speakers ..
I agree, DACs all have a different sound signature. One ladder DAC from another, one delta sigma from another, or one Sabre DAC from another. It definitely depends on how the DAC is implemented in the DAC itself. I've read on other forums where members insist that DACs all sound the same. I haven't found that to be true.
 
Since you all know more about dac's than I

If you have an I phone in one hand and this Oykyo TX-SR805 one of the big boys with nudes in the other. Is there a way to get signal from the phone and take advantage of the excellent Burr Brown chip set contained in the other with one analogue conversion, the only being the Onkyo and its chipset. I cannot think of anything.

The apple (genuine) camera adapter and dac contained within is ok but not great for analogue out.
 
Since you all know more about dac's than I

If you have an I phone in one hand and this Oykyo TX-SR805 one of the big boys with nudes in the other. Is there a way to get signal from the phone and take advantage of the excellent Burr Brown chip set contained in the other with one analogue conversion, the only being the Onkyo and its chipset. I cannot think of anything.

The apple (genuine) camera adapter and dac contained within is ok but not great for analogue out.

reason

I rotate other equipment too and other past phones and ones with headphone jacks were much better than the dongel and if I buy a new dac to be used with all other rotators. (it would be my first) I at least want to have something decent to compare it with other than the camera adapter.

The onkyo is excellent but want to hear it with its own chipset (This won't be feeding other things) I just need a comparison to evaluate/compare a new dac I might buy when it arrives.
 
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To my understanding, a DAC's main function is to convert digital signals from digital sources (CDP, PC, etc.) into analog signals to be amplified. This process should be taking place mainly inside a chip. My question is: why are there huge disparities among the DACs in the market today? How much does a DAC chip cost? Do prices directly affects the sound quality? To what extend does price matter? At what price point does the law of diminishing return kick in?

I am asking because I am new in this. I am looking to get a DAC to connect my PC to my Mac MC2205 because I have started to buy music in the lossless format and I intend to play them from my home PC feeding a DAC and then to my MC2205. I don't think I can afford a D150 kind of thing. Budget? Times are tight, maybe $100-200, can I get something good enough in this range?


You asked that question perfectly !!!! And it is obvious you will spot the BS... Because already know more than most who will replay!! You will find you way to that answer!!! Cheers!!!!
 
My digital playback has always sounded fine to me, I can still hear past 17k. I have probably listened to about 200 different DACs in my life and never had a single issue with any of them but one, and couldn't be bothered to tell one from another. I have only done one shootout with DACs, one a from a 1994 Panasonic MASH cd changer and a megabux Classe CD player and DAC. We had 2 copies of the same CD for proper to A/B, and sonically we couldn't tell them apart.

Output filters are still output stage, they don't count against a DAC chip which is why I brought up that the majority of the differences in a DAC, standalone or integrated, lay with the downstream components, which if competently designed, won't ruin anything.

The only DAC that I've heard that was different from the rest was one in a Lennox Sound brand diskman from 199X that said it had 4X oversampling. It was grainy. But it was supposed to be cheap crap.
This is the exact opposite of my experience. Ok maybe not the exact opposite but the one time I’ve actually heard a difference was when I went from a Technics MASH CD player to a Marantz DV8300 player. I just bought it on the cheap to try out after reading some reviews. I’m no hearing expert but it sure sounded way more detailed. I could hear things that I’d never heard from CD’s I’d listened to a million times. I then got a Marantz Sa11s1 and couldn’t hear any difference between that and the DV8300. So that was a $1000 lesson learned..hehe
 
Hmm. My hearing is average, at best. However, I can hear an obvious difference between our four CD players. I compared them a couple of years ago (same integrated amp, same speakers).
 
I'm not an expert on DACs. But, I can read and understand engineering materials. I only recently discovered the problem of "impulse response errors" in DACs. My interest in this has been ignited a bit. What I understand today is that there are many easily identifiable non-linearities in all DAC topologies. https://www.planetanalog.com/dac-basics-part-3-static-specifications/

In
my experience, when there are so many variable measurable differences, audible differences will become obvious to those with the patience to suss them out. While I have never given such effort to DACs, I have with amplifiers. They don't measure the same, and they don't sound the same.

I probably won't run out and replace my modest DAC, but I'm definitely intrigued now with the new information I gained.
 
What I understand today is that there are many easily identifiable non-linearities in all DAC topologies

Your link is a pretty good primer on the various DAC imperfections. But many of those are much less significant for the more modern, single-bit DAC topologies, especially DNL, which is usually most apparent around significant bit transitions, such as 01111 to 10000, in R2R DACs.
 
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