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DACs: Cheap vs Expensive

cpt_paranoia said:
Your link is a pretty good primer on the various DAC imperfections. But many of those are much less significant for the more modern, single-bit DAC topologies, especially DNL, which is usually most apparent around significant bit transitions, such as 01111 to 10000, in R2R DACs.
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Thanks! I'm just getting interested enough to learn more about these things, which I have somewhat taken for granted because I had so much to do regarding speakers and amps. I won't be buying a maga-dollar DAC, but I might look to improving my Cambridge DAC in the future. It's a bit more interesting of a topic than I gave credit for.
 
rwartner said:
When I got into DACs I got excited about it. Thought I should go optical to take advantage of higher resolution capability of the DAC. Laptop doesn't have optical out so got USB to optical converter which was very nice. Then I realized that I didn't have any hi-res files. Optical didn't sound any better. So I was dumb. But I know better now. USB works fine.
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You sound a lot like me. Bought a much newer CD player and heard a difference so I spent $1,000 on a much nicer one and couldn’t hear any difference. Oh well. At least the new one looks cool
 
I finally found a used Pro-ject Dac Box FL complete with the original box and all for $60. What a fantastic NOS DAC. Once those four TD1543 chips heat up a little bit it sounds great. I have it paired with a Schiit Vali 2++ headphone amp and I'm currently using a RCA Command 5670 new old stock tube. I'm really happy to add this one to my DAC family.
 
Jim Creek said:
In fact I tried streaming using the 3.5mm phone jack on my MacBook Air M1. It has no fans and a digital HD so that electronic noise is nonexistent. It sounded really good once I turned up the bass a couple of notches on the tone controls of my amp. That's been my experience.
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I was reading all this debate and found this.
Really funny because I tried my M1 3.5 output today and was quietly surprised of the sound quality :O
+1
 
ssmith3046 said:
I agree, DACs all have a different sound signature. One ladder DAC from another, one delta sigma from another, or one Sabre DAC from another. It definitely depends on how the DAC is implemented in the DAC itself. I've read on other forums where members insist that DACs all sound the same. I haven't found that to be true.
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The NOS r2r AD1865r tube DAC has filled in nicely ..wide, open and deep soundstaging, detailed, but in a very natural sounding musical way.
The bass that was a bit thin out of the box has filled in now that there are a couple hundred hours on it .. It's deep and natural sounding.
I'm certainly keeping it ..
It's a great DAC for streaming into a fairly high res system ..
The more that I listen to it the better I like it ..But then I prefer tubes and MOSFETs downstream from my sources, and this fits right in.

Thanks again ..
 
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I have also tried an NOS R2R AD1865R DAC with tube output.
I did some slight modifications:
-Removed Zener diode (used a a voltage regulator).
-Made some changes to use the provided tube rectifier (used it in a hybrid solid-state/tube configuration).
-Added bypass capacitors before the anode resistors.
-Improved the bypass and the output coupling capacitors by paralleling some better caps.

The actual kit is this one:
s-l1600.jpg


All in all, it is very good, although I prefer to use my NOS, TDA1541 DAC with SRPP tube output.
 
Evonimos said:
I have also tried an NOS R2R AD1865R DAC with tube output.
I did some slight modifications:
-Removed Zener diode (used a a voltage regulator).
-Made some changes to use the provided tube rectifier (used it in a hybrid solid-state/tube configuration).
-Added bypass capacitors before the anode resistors.
-Improved the bypass and the output coupling capacitors by paralleling some better caps.

The actual kit is this one:
s-l1600.jpg


All in all, it is very good, although I prefer to use my NOS, TDA1541 DAC with SRPP tube output.
Click to expand...

?? ... The caps that are there are Wima's and Nichcons .. What did you replace them with ??

The one that I picked up uses the same board ... just assembled in an aluminum case, with a Zerozone power supply, and quality connectors.
Pretty much a bargain at $150 ..
And some of us mostly manage to burn things, and drop little solder balls all over the floor if we pick up a soldering gun, so assembled works for me.

Not too surprising that you prefer it with a more or less legendary DAC ,, the TDA1541 is an exceedingly fine execution.
My downstream gear is detailed, but warm .. nothing over-etched, so it works well for me as is..
If any of my gear was verging on sharp or bright, I would try that TDA1541 based DAC too..

Incidently this thing blows the doors off of the Schitt Modi tha's sitting upstairs for about the same price ..for sound quality especially, but for build quality also ..
 
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Akustic said:
?? ... The caps that are there are Wima's and Nichcons .. What did you replace them with ??

The one that I picked up uses the same board ... just assembled in an aluminum case, with a Zerozone power supply, and quality connectors.
Pretty much a bargain at $150 ..
And some of us mostly manage to burn things, and drop little solder balls all over the floor if we pick up a soldering gun, so assembled works for me.

Not too surprising that you prefer it with a more or less legendary DAC ,, the TDA1541 is an exceedingly fine execution.
My downstream gear is detailed, but warm .. nothing over-etched, so it works well for me as is..
If any of my gear was verging on sharp or bright, I would try that TDA1541 based DAC too..

Incidently this thing blows the doors off of the Schitt Modi that's sitting upstairs for about the same price ..for sound quality especially, but for build quality also ..
Click to expand...

Doesn't surprise me either that this thing mops the floor with more modern, SMD-filled, sigma-delta based DACs, like the Modi.
Not to say that Modi isn't a great DAC in its class.
Just different approach and purpose.

The caps on the board, were indeed Nichicon and WIMA.
In case of those 2.2uF WIMA, I replaced them with larger 4.7uF Siemens Klangfilm MKL capacitors.
And used some smaller Paper-in-Oil in parallel.
As for the electrolytics, I used smaller film types in parallel.

If you can take a couple of shots of what's inside the AD1865 based DAC, we'd be able to have a better picture of your DAC.
 
JoeESP9 said:
IME the onboard DAC's in PC's don't sound bad at all. It's just that outboard DAC's sound better to my ears.
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I agree that on-board DAC's on $200+ motherboards are usually pretty good provided they come with decent drivers that aren't 5 years old, designed for previous-generation hardware and not available for download in a reasonably easy fashion, but one has to keep in mind that computer DAC's are optimized for gaming, suck up a lot of power, operate in a more or less noisy environment sitting close to a powerful PSU and be it just for that they are not as "musical" as dedicated audio converters with their own power supply or conditioned (filtered) USB power feed, the quality of which depending on the computer's own PSU and how the mainboard's power-related hardware processes voltage.While noise can be somewhat mitigated with the use of fan-on-demand PSU designs (such as the RMx series from Corsair to name one that is familiar to desktop audio fans, pun perhaps slightly intended).

But nevertheless no PSU will change the fact that a motherboard DAC has to share resources with a plethora of unrelated stuff that for some reason is deemed more important than music listening by the the workaholic CPU and in there he's the boss. Also, onboard DAC's have some of their functionality originating in virtualized hardware. These functions are resource-intensive and as a result are often hosted and processed by the GPU (if you happen to have one with room to spare) to relieve the load on the CPU and that is source for more noise and other EMI issues, all of which being non-conducive to music enjoyment. Certainly the day will come when purpose-designed computers will be sold assembled around cost-no-object premium-only audio edge, we can count on the Chinese to come up with that pretty soon. I read that it may already exist on the Chinese domestic market like so many other things we know little about yet, but goes for above $20k so not for the faint of wallet. Now I believe that the audiophile sub-community of high-quality desktop audio enthusiasts is getting ripe enough to be harvested of the audio-currency generated by newfangled ear candy generating devices, once it becomes relatively affordable. I'll be first in line, I yearn for a less cluttered desk, wife uses a different word for that but my cave my rules.
 
Evonimos said:
Doesn't surprise me either that this thing mops the floor with more modern, SMD-filled, sigma-delta based DACs, like the Modi.
Not to say that Modi isn't a great DAC in its class.
Just different approach and purpose.

The caps on the board, were indeed Nichicon and WIMA.
In case of those 2.2uF WIMA, I replaced them with larger 4.7uF Siemens Klangfilm MKL capacitors.
And used some smaller Paper-in-Oil in parallel.
As for the electrolytics, I used smaller film types in parallel.

If you can take a couple of shots of what's inside the AD1865 based DAC, we'd be able to have a better picture of your DAC.
Click to expand...

Looks like this ..

20230201_154741.jpg
 
Evonimos said:
Doesn't surprise me either that this thing mops the floor with more modern, SMD-filled, sigma-delta based DACs, like the Modi.
Not to say that Modi isn't a great DAC in its class.
Just different approach and purpose.

The caps on the board, were indeed Nichicon and WIMA.
In case of those 2.2uF WIMA, I replaced them with larger 4.7uF Siemens Klangfilm MKL capacitors.
And used some smaller Paper-in-Oil in parallel.
As for the electrolytics, I used smaller film types in parallel.

If you can take a couple of shots of what's inside the AD1865 based DAC, we'd be able to have a better picture of your DAC.
Click to expand...

+2 ... on that .
This thing is clearly 2 or 3 cuts above any of the other DACs that have been in the house .. Audioengine, Bluesound, Schitt .. can't list all of them.
Just approx. $200 DACs that are getting good press ..

I listen with fairly high res gear .. there are 4 amps and two preamps on that table, tubes and MOSFET mostly, other than the Aragon.

This DAC is just as it should be .. Open, staging out forward in the room .. no etching, or metallic artifacts, or canned colorations like the others.
Neutral, deep, extended .. rounded and musical .. works for me . further improvements would be an expensive rabbit hole that I have been down in the past.
Ain't chasing that ultimate fidelity dragon anymore ..

For everybody ?? Who knows ..
But for the money it's far and away the best thing that's come through my door ..
I only kept the Modi because it's less than detailed nature works in the way too bright living room upstairs ..
Time to quit chasing the DAC's and get back to the music ..

Having access to most of the music in the world is indeed a fine thing .. I couldn't listen to it all in two lifetimes.
 
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If you choose, this specific DAC (same PCB as mine) can be improved with minimal cost.
You'll just need basic soldering skills and inexpensive parts.

Might post more details with a couple of pictures later.
I guess there might be more folks interested in this nice little DAC.

One strange thing about this tube rectifier, is that it doesn't really rectify anything.
I don't understand why they chose this configuration.

It definitely looks cool.
But I suppose they also did it for the practical reason delaying the HV rise to the plates, prolonging the life of this chinese (6922 equivalent) tube.

In any case, putting this tube back to a real rectifying duty is a really easy fix.
 
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Another question about DACs. I listen to CDs and consider them the best source available. If connected to a DAC, can the sound really be improved?? BTW, my one and only measuring device is my ears. Thanks
 
Bill Murray said:
Another question about DACs. I listen to CDs and consider them the best source available. If connected to a DAC, can the sound really be improved?? BTW, my one and only measuring device is my ears. Thanks
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Improvements aren’t likely unless you have a substandard CD player.
 
Bill Murray said:
Another question about DACs. I listen to CDs and consider them the best source available. If connected to a DAC, can the sound really be improved?? BTW, my one and only measuring device is my ears. Thanks
Click to expand...
Personal experience: I had been playing music on a Denon DCD1560 from its own internal DAC, then switched over to a Musetex Bitstream DAC. People were over, and heads turned. “What did you do? That sounds better!”

You can make of that what you will. I think the speakers at the time were Martin Logan Sequel IIs.
 
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