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DACs: Cheap vs Expensive

pete_mac said:
For clarity, I'm in no way seeking to supress people giving their opinions.

My comment was a reaction to the often confrontational, dogmatic attitude of some objectivists as per the posts I replied to above, and in other recent threads. The post I quoted is but the tip of the iceberg.
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Well there is no question that some people can reliably tell a difference between some DACs. This has been demonstrated in controlled testing, something that more dogmatically objective posters may be unaware of?

On the flip side I have seen equally dogmatic and confrontational posts along the lines of 'Of course there are differences, you must be deaf if you can't hear them.'

IMV everyone needs to dial it back. We would not do this if we were face to face.

Although personally I don't find the differences I perceive with some DACs sufficient to warrant spending large amounts of money on one, even though I could. They seem to me to be just subtle differences rather than improvements. But we all have to find our own paths.
 
Jalousie said:
People who say they can hear differences between similar-class products or wires or whatever actually can't in double-blind listening tests.

[Let's hear from the flock before the popcorn and lock.]
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Actually, I agree with you. I would also contend, however, that said double blind tests are of absolutely zero value in determining the efficacy of said products, so you’re right. Let’s just lock it and have done with this tired old bullshit, shall we?
 
DAC's, like any other component in audio have a steep cost/performance curve. I'm listening my "Rock Mix" on Spotify Premium on a pair of $60 US Logi Z207 Bluetooth speakers while I type this on my laptop. And they sound so much better then they have any right to. Perfect for desktop use without a sub. And the DAC in these must cost next to nothing considering for $60 you get a Bluetooth receiver, 5 wpc stereo amp, a pair of speakers and power supply with the DAC.

Makes you wonder how much profit there is in DAC's costing over $100 or so, Never mind expensive ones.
 
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charles 1973 said:
DAC's, like any other component in audio have a steep cost/performance curve. I'm listening my "Rock Mix" on Spotify Premium on a pair of $60 US Logi Z207 Bluetooth speakers while I type this on my laptop. And they sound so much better then they have any right to. Perfect for desktop use without a sub. And the DAC in these must cost next to nothing considering for $60 you get a Bluetooth receiver, 5 wpc stereo amp, a pair of speakers and power supply with the DAC.

Makes you wonder how much profit there is in DAC's costing over $100 or so, Never mind expensive ones.
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The discrete R-2R DACs are chock full of fancy capacitors plus usually in a fancy case. If you consider the retail price must be at least ten times the bill of materials then $200 of parts will be a sale price of at least $2K if they actually want to make any profit at all.

Once you get to the $5K and above level then you move into Veblen territory where they are making a sizeable profit margin on each one, but you have to balance that against the fact that they are not going to sell a lot of them.

At an educated guess a $100 DAC might yield the manufacturer $5 net profit after all costs, which is fine if you sell 20K units per year.
 
Late to the show. DAC has two functions. Converting digital to analog AND sending signal to the amplifier. D/A conversion is usually the focus but the analog section is just as important. There are key differences to consider. Some will have opamps and others will have discrete analog section. IME, DAC with discrete analog section will sound clearer and darker with better dynamics. If your preference is for warmer sound, opamp will be fine.
 
All this science, I don’t understand. But I do know that the ladder tube offerings from Lampizator must have some special magic fairy dust that takes digital to a seductive, analog level I haven’t experienced elsewhere.
 
pete_mac said:
Challenge accepted! Easily done, provided the system is sufficiently resolving and the listener knows what to listen for.
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If I had fancy dac gear I'd test it myself. But I know it's just the ASR version of audio cables.

My phone's a coathanger that does just as well as your mogamis.


(Then again, I can barely tell a Sansui X balanced from a cap-coupled amp, so it's even easier to discount my very correct opinion.)
 
While my own experience suggests there are noticeable differences between expensive DAC's and cheap ones, The only DAC that I have that is truly poor quality is the one built into my 10 year old laptop.

When I used the laptop's 3.5mm jack to play Spotify Premium through my Logitech Z207 desktop speakers the sound is grainy. But it seems fine for Netflix and YouTube. A huge improvement over the laptops built in speakers.

Using the speakers internal DAC with Bluetooth from my phone to play Spotify Premium they sound very good indeed. As I eluded to in a previous post, perfect for a desktop computer monitor.
 
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bhairavi said:
If I had fancy dac gear I'd test it myself. But I know it's just the ASR version of audio cables.

My phone's a coathanger that does just as well as your mogamis.


(Then again, I can barely tell a Sansui X balanced from a cap-coupled amp, so it's even easier to discount my very correct opinion.)
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Speaking of DACs, as well as coat hangers (which, I’ve discovered, come in many forms), I was doing work with a billionaire and art collector who spent his money like most of us do—that is, as we choose to and on what we value—whether on amplifiers or staff or real estate or jewelry or vehicles or boats or horses or drugs or newspapers or vacations or art or sex or interconnects or whatever—even expensive DACs.

I was meeting him at 9:00 am on a brisk winter day at his UES Manhattan townhouse. On the way from the subway, I grabbed a hot Starbucks coffee and walked the few blocks to his mansion.

The exact moment I arrived at his front door (without ringing or knocking or announcing myself)—without missing a step—it was opened by a doorman and I was greeted by name and escorted to the lobby elevator, which also immediately opened.

When I exited the elevator (without pushing a button), a butler took my Starbucks coffee and placed it on a silver tray, whispering to me that I wouldn’t be needing it; as another took off my coat in one swift movement, folded it over his arm, and vanished. If I hadn’t been surrounded by Picassos and Arps and Legers and Braques, I would have felt like I’d been perfectly mugged.

Five seconds later I was offered, from another silver tray, a cup of hot coffee in a white porcelain cup, and an array of sweeteners and creamers. Then, my host greeted me and we toured his home and art collection.

As we arrived back at the elevator to travel on to his country home upstate, my coffee cup was removed and my coat arrived back on my body—again, seamlessly.

We continued to engage in lively conversation, as the doors downstairs, including those to his awaiting limousine parked outside, seemingly opened on their own. When we sat down in the car, someone lowered tray tables, where bottles of cold water, a hot pitcher of coffee, fresh squeezed orange juice, warm scones, butter, and jam were placed. A white linen napkin magically appeared in my lap.

Back in NYC that early afternoon, we arrived, without a reservation, for lunch at his favorite restaurant. As soon as we entered, he was enthusiastically greeted by the staff.

Our coats, not quite as seamlessly, were removed by a woman and we were seated at his table. “We weren’t expecting you,” the maître de’ said, “But we are happy to see you!” Almost immediately after we sat down, hors d'oeuvres and two ice-cold martinis arrived at the table—followed by wine, pastas, entrees, and desserts. (No menus or bills ever appeared.)

When we stood up to leave, our coats, again, were eased effortlessly onto our bodies.

There are coat hangers—and, then, there are coat hangers.
 
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bhairavi said:
If I had fancy dac gear I'd test it myself. But I know it's just the ASR version of audio cables.

My phone's a coathanger that does just as well as your mogamis.


(Then again, I can barely tell a Sansui X balanced from a cap-coupled amp, so it's even easier to discount my very correct opinion.)
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I would never discount anyone's opinion as it's all relative. There are no absolutes in this audio journey. All that matters to you is what you hear and like. What I hear and like isn't worth two figs to you if your experience is completely different!
 
Sorry my Friends, In order to clean up the "SoundMann" mess, LOTS of posts had to go bye bye....... another 5 minutes of my life I'll never get back.... :rflmao:

Due to his aggressive crusading, he has been uninvited to this thread.

Enjoy your nice clean thread gents... ;)
 
There are good and not so good choices at all price levels, to which level you want to go is up to personal preference.
I think we all remember when cheap digital was clearly not good.

But when 100 bucks for a new product can offer you fantastic performance (the SMSL PS200 being a good example), times are very good indeed for even the budget minded..
 
My experience with DACs has been extremely negative. I bought a Schitt ?? dac from Amazon not long ago. 1. I could detect NO difference in sound quality from built-in dac to the new dac and 2. even worse, the new dac truncated a millisecond or so of the opening note of each song that played. So back to Amazon it went. I have never, BTW, ever heard of anyone else having the truncation problem. Very annoying.
 
Bill Murray said:
My experience with DACs has been extremely negative. I bought a Schitt ?? dac from Amazon not long ago. 1. I could detect NO difference in sound quality from built-in dac to the new dac and 2. even worse, the new dac truncated a millisecond or so of the opening note of each song that played. So back to Amazon it went. I have never, BTW, ever heard of anyone else having the truncation problem. Very annoying.
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Hey Bill, that doesn't sound like a positive experience indeed!
The built in DAC of which device are you referring to?
 
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