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DACs: Cheap vs Expensive

Jan-Helge said:
Fact is that many people use 10x (or more) money on DAC's then they should need, for a audiophile it's no problem to use 10x more money, also on thing they don't manage to hear any difference on (same **** with cables).
If you want to be a fool, then you are welcome to be that, that's your own choice. Some people have spend hell of much money on foolish things, When it cames to DAC's, after cables that is the dumbest thing to use much money on... Put the money in to better speakers or a better amp in stad, that give better result wich a new DAC's never can give.
With right amp and speaker then a old and very cheap CD-player (without a external fancy DAC) could play amazing, the most expencive DAC's out there could never give a good result on cheaper amp's and speakers.
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I gotta agree, a decent amp and speakers is the key. A CD player is a cheap way to feed the amp/receiver and you’re rockin!! I use a DAC to stream but it’s just for bluetooth so my phone isn’t tethered it was well worth 60 bucks to cut the cord. I went with a BluDento BLT-2 it works great. IMG_4084.jpeg
 
Bushikan said:
Count me as one of those fools who can hear a difference between DACs and CDPs—and even sometimes cables.

Thats why I’m saving my pennies for a Lampizator tube ladder DAC. They aren’t cheap; and to my ears they get better the higher up the ladder ($4K-$50K) you go.

Of course, maybe my amp and speakers are the problem. (Maybe I’m the problem.) IDK. (Maybe you pity the fool.) Seems the more time and money I invest, the more differences among equipment I detect. Doing the best I can here.

Please educate us fools on what economical system (including DAC and CDP) you recommend. Thanks.
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The fun part here is that you could invite 10 audiophiles to your home, then try this:

Let them listen to different cables who have different cost, tell them what they listen to in front and tell how much each cables cost... I could tell you the result, they should tell most posetive about the most expencive cables and find them much better than the cheaper ones.

---

Then do the same, but now don't let them know what they listen to, or fool them totaly and let them beleve that the cheap cables is the expensive ones. Now you should get the result that the cheap ones sounds best.
 
People to often listen with open eyes, how somethings sounds is not only reassons why people invest in hifi.

Price itself, design and the status a product have also have muct to tell for many...

When it cames to hifi to many wish to be fooled, we have all done investments who are stupidity. Myself I remember the green pen wich should be used on CD's (back in 90's), I was dumb enough and miss knowledge to understand that I got fooled. Not only dumb investment I have done when it came to hifi, back in time I buy way to expencive cables myself, and other mistakes wich have wrong focus.

But experians and knowledge have help me don't do such stupidity anymore, I don't tell that a OK DAC's don't matters, of corse a ok DAC is something all should use. But difference between them is so small that it's no reassons to empty account totally when buying one, the most expencive ones is not worth it and it is wrong focus... Better to use money on things wich really bring improvement in sound, like better amps and speakers etc., or buying music in stad of use to much on things wich give to little...
 
Jan-Helge said:
Fact is that many people use 10x (or more) money on DAC's then they should need, for a audiophile it's no problem to use 10x more money, also on thing they don't manage to hear any difference on (same **** with cables).
If you want to be a fool, then you are welcome to be that, that's your own choice. Some people have spend hell of much money on foolish things, When it cames to DAC's, after cables that is the dumbest thing to use much money on... Put the money in to better speakers or a better amp in stad, that give better result wich a new DAC's never can give.
With right amp and speaker then a old and very cheap CD-player (without a external fancy DAC) could play amazing, the most expencive DAC's out there could never give a good result on cheaper amp's and speakers.
Click to expand...
Can you site these facts, I mean opinions lol :rolleyes:

:beerchug:
 
facepalm-hopeless.gif
 
Slightly off-topic, but related... I've been out of touch on hi-fi in recent years, but I recall back in the 90s people were worried about the audio quality that could be derived from toslink connections. Toslink uses multimode fiber and there are numerous internal reflections within the fiber which the argument went, resulted in a lot of jitter. I recall seeing a Japanese audio magazine in which they connected a toslink cable to a jitter analyzer and found that simply moving the toslink cable caused the jitter to shift all over the place. I don't see anything about that any more, everything has toslink connectors, and people use them without batting an eye. Do modern DACs fix the jitter problem now? Or has jitter proven not to be an issue anyway?

My 90s vintage CD player has a ST optical connector as well as coax and toslink. The ST optical uses single-mode glass fiber that was supposed to not have the same jitter problem as toslink. I've never seen a DAC with an ST optical input, but I suppose they must be out there.
 
At one point I realize I was sort of on a crusade to get people to agree with me. No longer - I now feel Internet peace is more important than being right, up to a point. Simply put, I can't hear the difference between pricey and cheap DACs. If you can that is surprising to me but it's none of my business - listen to whatever you want and more power to you.

However, some of the $$ spent on higher end DACs might go into driver software updates and that could be money well spent. My two ultra-cheap DACs occasionally have wacky failures, usually solvable with a power cycle of the DAC. If I paid $1000 for a DAC I would expect the vendor to make their boxes perform perfectly.

Just to stir the pot: I think ASR bashing is mystifying. Why would you not want a test report to compare gear? You can say it sounds subjectively bad or inferior or whatever, but having the numbers is quite useful IMO, especially for electronics.
 
I've seen a few DACs that use an ST optical connector, mostly early 90's, but I've seen a few later Japanese DACs that use them, as you said they seemed very focused on jitter, and accurate clocks.

My 90's transport DAC combo uses a separate toslink to connect the clocks in both units (signal is though coax), as a way of avoiding jitter.

Personally it's the analog side of the DAC that changes the sound the most, it's the main reason many DACs sound so similar, as they are using off the shelf op-amps (which is why opamp rolling has become so popular).
 
I own a CDP. I don’t own an outboard DAC or streamer yet. (I’m in the market.) But I’ve owned numerous CDPs (costing $100-$7,500). And I’ve auditioned many, many more. Every one of them sounded very different in my system (maybe it’s my Klipschorns). Sometimes I preferred the less expensive CDP. Right now, I’ve got a $500 CDP—which beat out all the others overall. So—as with everything in this hobby—it’s not about the cost. It’s always about system synergy.

In terms of auditioning DACs, I’ve done so mostly at audio stores and audiofests. To me, most of them sound a little too digital, analytic. Thats why I’m sold on the Lampizator tube offerings—which sound (to my ears) a world apart. To me, it’s worth the investment—not because of the cost but because of the increased sound quality. I can’t imagine that others could not hear the differences I’m talking about.

That said, I will probably get a Lampizator—which I have not heard in my listening room. I might love it even more. Or…it just may not work in my system. And I’ll accept that and move on.
 
Blowed Fuse said:
I gotta agree, a decent amp and speakers is the key. A CD player is a cheap way to feed the amp/receiver and you’re rockin!! I use a DAC to stream but it’s just for bluetooth so my phone isn’t tethered it was well worth 60 bucks to cut the cord. I went with a BluDento BLT-2 it works great. View attachment 3308094
Click to expand...

Yes, the Blue Dento BLT-2 ! I also have one : an instant-easy use, flawless little device ! It can be seen below, upper left :

1727627733491.png

T
 
@Bushikan those are financially inaccessible to many/most people. It's hard for me to understand the comparative value of that kind of pure audiophile product vs. a more mainstream top performer. Just for clarity: Is there a performance effect from using tubes in a digital system component? Seems counterintuitive. :dunno:
 
Jan-Helge said:
People to often listen with open eyes, how somethings sounds is not only reassons why people invest in hifi.

Price itself, design and the status a product have also have muct to tell for many...

When it cames to hifi to many wish to be fooled, we have all done investments who are stupidity. Myself I remember the green pen wich should be used on CD's (back in 90's), I was dumb enough and miss knowledge to understand that I got fooled. Not only dumb investment I have done when it came to hifi, back in time I buy way to expencive cables myself, and other mistakes wich have wrong focus.

But experians and knowledge have help me don't do such stupidity anymore, I don't tell that a OK DAC's don't matters, of corse a ok DAC is something all should use. But difference between them is so small that it's no reassons to empty account totally when buying one, the most expencive ones is not worth it and it is wrong focus... Better to use money on things wich really bring improvement in sound, like better amps and speakers etc., or buying music in stad of use to much on things wich give to little...
Click to expand...
Your recent posts on this thread are a dead end on AK. Your opinion has been brought up many times by others. It usually ends up that the threads get locked and users who keep bringing up the topic of too expensive have even been banned.
I am on a budget when it comes to gear and music but I don't think people who have deeper wallets to invest in high end gear are bad or foolish good for them I say. I have some dream gear in mind if I ever have that level of disposable income.

It's a great time to be a budget audiophile as a decent system can be had for low dollars. Plus with Hi res streaming and low monthly fees millions of songs can be enjoyed and sound great.

A friend on AK recently gifted me some cables to run between my dac and amp. Way better than the very cheap rca cables I found lying around.
I did notice a darker background. But I still get the same enjoyment from the setup that I did before the new addition.

Since you are a new member just wanted to let you know that your opinion has been beaten to death and isn't going to enhance your standing on AK. It will just cause drama especially when you add name calling. Very low tolerance of such behavior which is why this is a great site.
 
DAC update: Topping works very well. BT, USB Dac, remote. Using it as preamp and being able to just use the included remote for volume is nice. Should work great for vintage amps without digital-in or remote.
 
Depends? Do you have golden ears? Do you need the very best? Are you willing to pay the price for the very best? Is 70% to 80% of the performance of stupidly expensive gear ok?

Prior to Covid-19 you could purchase a $75K Corvette and hang with Super Cars costing upwards of a Million USD! You might not beat them but you could afford it and use it as your daily driver and take it to the track for a hot and heated track day and drive it home! You could also stop at McDonalds ont he way and go throught the drive through and open the window and get your food. You could change the oil for $35 and get it worked on in any town with a Chevy dealer and could read the codes for free and rest them at Auto Zone! My point is how much is it worth and what are you willing to live with? Trust me when I say Exotics are not easy to live with! You have to pay to play!
 
If I may post my opinion:
If you want better sound, start with your room, then your speakers. There is much more to gain than in upgrading your DAC.

Just my 2 cents on this topic, after I just compared another (audiosciencereview...) highly rated DAC to a 70 Euro DAC Hat with my Raspberry Pi. A/B listening revealed very little to no difference at all.
 
This 'there's no difference between X and X' gear on the interwebs is tired. Just regarding the dac chips alone - If there was no sonic difference between them do you really think Cirrus/Burr-Brown/AKM/ESS etc. would be spending $$$$ on their own engineers and designs? AKM's engineers are on record talking about the deliberate choices made to create the 'Velvest Sound'. Are they liars? Are they overpaid deluded audiophools? If there was no intended sonic difference in their product they would simply outsource from a single manufacturer and call it day. Evidently that's not the case.

Just because YOU can't hear it, doesn't mean the rest of us need to be told we're wrong.
And if some folks were so conclusively right about their objective stance they would spend less time hawking Topping and SMSL products on their forums and more time arranging a broad comprehensive industry-defining DBX test to settle it once and for all. Funny how some rando in their house not hearing a difference isn't questioned as garbage methodology but the second someone says X is subjectively better the Placebo/DBX Brigade appears.

Audio is inherently subjective and at the end of the day there is NOTHING anyone can do about it. What you prefer is up to your ears alone and no one else's.
 
People who say they can hear differences between similar-class products or wires or whatever actually can't in double-blind listening tests.

[Let's hear from the flock before the popcorn and lock.]
 
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