DACs: Cheap vs Expensive

[Weejub]

So . . last night, I picked up a Chord Qutest from my local dealer, Audio Advice (great team/business, btw!). They are going to let me test it at home on my system (that I bought from them).

Wife wanted to hear it (given the price). So i did a "blind" test for her - really trying to mix up order of sample, etc. All music was from .wav files I ripped from CDs, and played through Roon. Music ranged from Beatles to Metallica - - the Avett Brothers to Miles Davis.

For about an hour I awkwardly, but quickly swapped back and forth between the Dragonfly Cobalt and the Chord Qutest.

I had to constantly reduce/increase the volume for the two as the Qutest typically was played 37% on the MA352 whereas the Dragonfly was at 44% to sound the same.

I started taking notes, but after a while the common themes came through pretty clearly:

• Chord had "better" separation and detail. (Harmonies on "Lonesome Road" by James Taylor)
• Chord had some musicality improvements in the middle ranges - especially with male voices that weren't "stressed"
• Chord had better clarity around instruments that were "low stress" like woodwinds and piano not played aggressively. (Beatles remastered "Yesterday" - instruments)
• Dragonfly had better overall "musicality" - it seemed the sum of all parts fit together somehow better
• When music was "stressing" - like a high strained vocal note, or an aggressive guitar solo the Chord felt "pinched" as my Wife stated. Seemed to happen at the end of a section of singing or at the beginning of a guitar solo.
• Chord's bass, at times felt loose vs the Dragonfly, but it was more "round" and fuller at other times.
• I preferred the "mix" of the range of music across the spectrum on the Chord, but Wife heard the opposite.
• I heard some "mechanical/robotic/artificial" melding of parts on the Dragonfly at times of big sound stage - Wife didn't.

So . . .I am going to try a better quality USB cable and give the Qutest some time to "open up" as people say it needs. But . . . .

Initial impression is the incremental value is tough to justify. Versus the Dragonfly and assuming the Qutest opens up to be better by losing some of the "pinching" and "stressing," I have a couple value thoughts. At $1400 more, the Qutest needs to show me something. I think this is the "plus/minus" in my own mind:

• Additional sound detail assuming the Chord Qutest "opens up" and the stressful sound fixes itself ($200+ depending on how much, maybe more if it is a lot. If it does not - this is $0 or less)
• Having a quality component that seems sturdy and can either look great with my system or be somewhat hidden is worth something to me (hard to put a price on this, but its not like its another matching McIntosh component. (maybe $100-300?)
• Made in England means something to me, not sure why - I guess I'm hoping for build quality, but . .(maybe $100)
• Portability of the Dragonfly is crazy - I hope to use it with headphones and phone on Qobuz, etc. (this is a negative, but given I want two DACs, not going to penalize)

So - Total "value" assuming the Chord Qutest opens up and "fixes" itself in some of the tight/loose areas, I think I see as much as $500 of value vs the Dragonfly. Right now that is GENEROUS.

I am REALLY hoping this changes as I actually need two DACs and would love to have something permanent and "component like" to go with my McIntosh/Cornwall set up. I also need something for the Sansui shop system in my garage. Given the Dragonfly is portable, it was easy to chose it first, but much harder to justify the step up to the Chord Qutest.

 

[gvl]

Given your experience, how confident are you in being able to recognize one vs. the other in a proper blind test with levels matched with a multimeter and not be ear?

 

[Funky54]

So . . last night, I picked up a Chord Qutest from my local dealer, Audio Advice (great team/business, btw!). They are going to let me test it at home on my system (that I bought from them).

Wife wanted to hear it (given the price). So i did a "blind" test for her - really trying to mix up order of sample, etc. All music was from .wav files I ripped from CDs, and played through Roon. Music ranged from Beatles to Metallica - - the Avett Brothers to Miles Davis.

For about an hour I awkwardly, but quickly swapped back and forth between the Dragonfly Cobalt and the Chord Qutest.

I had to constantly reduce/increase the volume for the two as the Qutest typically was played 37% on the MA352 whereas the Dragonfly was at 44% to sound the same.

I started taking notes, but after a while the common themes came through pretty clearly:

• Chord had "better" separation and detail. (Harmonies on "Lonesome Road" by James Taylor)
• Chord had some musicality improvements in the middle ranges - especially with male voices that weren't "stressed"
• Chord had better clarity around instruments that were "low stress" like woodwinds and piano not played aggressively. (Beatles remastered "Yesterday" - instruments)
• Dragonfly had better overall "musicality" - it seemed the sum of all parts fit together somehow better
• When music was "stressing" - like a high strained vocal note, or an aggressive guitar solo the Chord felt "pinched" as my Wife stated. Seemed to happen at the end of a section of singing or at the beginning of a guitar solo.
• Chord's bass, at times felt loose vs the Dragonfly, but it was more "round" and fuller at other times.
• I preferred the "mix" of the range of music across the spectrum on the Chord, but Wife heard the opposite.
• I heard some "mechanical/robotic/artificial" melding of parts on the Dragonfly at times of big sound stage - Wife didn't.

So . . .I am going to try a better quality USB cable and give the Qutest some time to "open up" as people say it needs. But . . . .

Initial impression is the incremental value is tough to justify. Versus the Dragonfly and assuming the Qutest opens up to be better by losing some of the "pinching" and "stressing," I have a couple value thoughts. At $1400 more, the Quest needs to show me something. I think this is the "plus/minus" in my own mind:

• Additional sound detail assuming the Chord Qutest "opens up" and the stressful sound fixes itself ($200+ depending on how much, maybe more if it is a lot. If it does not - this is $0 or less)
• Having a quality component that seems sturdy and can either look great with my system or be somewhat hidden is worth something to me (hard to put a price on this, but its not like its another matching McIntosh component. (maybe $100-300?)
• Made in England means something to me, not sure why - I guess I'm hoping for build quality, but . .(maybe $100)
• Portability of the Dragonfly is crazy - I hope to use it with headphones and phone on Qobuz, etc. (this is a negative, but given I want two DACs, not going to penalize)

So - Total "value" assuming the Chord Qutest opens up and "fixes" itself in some of the tight/loose areas, I think I see as much as $500 of value vs the Dragonfly. Right now that is GENEROUS.

I am REALLY hoping this changes as I actually need two DACs and would love to have something permanent and "component like" to go with my McIntosh/Cornwall set up. I also need something for the Sansui shop system in my garage. Given the Dragonfly is portable, it was easy to chose it first, but much harder to justify the step up to the Chord Qutest.

This for me has been the best post so far. I’m kinda like… it doesn’t matter. They all are trade offs. I think I’m talking myself out of searching for a better DAC. I did pick up a used Berkeley Audio Design alpha 2. I haven’t hooked it up yet, but if it’s not considerably better that the dragonfly I’m done caring about dacs.

 

[Weejub]

Given your experience, how confident are you in being able to recognize one vs. the other in a proper blind test with levels matched with a multimeter and not be ear?

I think it would be a easier to hear the differences if the conditions were better and more than just me struggling through a trial run. I also think someone with more experience would be able to really put more value on some of the things I heard, that my Wife did not - - some of which I think make the Chord Qutest "better." Couple key things that I think would be heard:

• I think ideally you would have two identical systems with the exact set up and quickly swap back and forth.
• If you really could match the levels exactly between the DACs
• If you have the experience to hear the "quality" of a recording and know that one DAC is simply "covering up" issues in the recording vs exposing those issues accurately:
  • this is what I meant by "the 'mechanical/robotic/artificial' melding of parts on the Dragonfly" - - stuff I pick up on, but a trained ear may do better
  • also the way the two present the music at frequencies - a more trained ear could possibly provide a good/bad view of that balance - a lot of that is preference, though.

 

[Weejub]

This for me has been the best post so far. I’m kinda like… it doesn’t matter. They all are trade offs. I think I’m talking myself out of searching for a better DAC. I did pick up a used Berkeley Audio Design alpha 2. I haven’t hooked it up yet, but if it’s not considerably better that the dragonfly I’m done caring about dacs.

I really hoped I wouldn't push people that way - I just had an opportunity to give a view of a couple "laymen/laywomen" on initial viewpoints.

This was only part 1, btw - - the real review would come in a couple weeks once the Qutest has a chance to open up.

For me, I have decided to avoid vinyl and other mediums, so the DAC is very important and I am willing to "throw money at it" if it produces a better sound to me.

I was also trying to justify the cost up to my Wife more than anyone, and so I made her listen blind so I could get her view. Some of the issues where very obvious to her and I heard them and agreed. However, I think she was flat wrong on some things too I don't want her to know that, though LOL.

This morning she said she trusted my ear, and the things I found were enough for us to keep it and see what happens.

 

[gvl]

I think ideally you would have two identical systems with the exact set up and quickly swap back and forth.

If you use a computer some players allow to copy output to several audio devices. I know JRiver can do it. I use Daphile based streamer, I can do it there too. If the DAC doesn't have volume control then volumes can be matched digitally in the player app. Then you just need an AB switcher or an input selector on the amp to select one the other. Counterintuitively it actually makes it more difficult to tell the DACs apart in a quick AB switching scenario once properly set up and level matched, even sighted.

 

[Weejub]

This for me has been the best post so far. I’m kinda like… it doesn’t matter. They all are trade offs. I think I’m talking myself out of searching for a better DAC. I did pick up a used Berkeley Audio Design alpha 2. I haven’t hooked it up yet, but if it’s not considerably better that the dragonfly I’m done caring about dacs.

One more thing - I would love to hear your review!

 

[Weejub]

Day 2 comparisons on Dragonfly Cobalt vs Chord Qutest.

The Chord Qutest really opened up yesterday quite a bit. I didn't hear the pinching sound on "higher stress" parts like the first few hours of use. The total musicality of the device really improved. The space that is between the instruments and voices is there and the Dragonfly seems melded together and mechanical a bit in comparison. Still not sure it is worth the $1400 delta - - and with cables that is even more.

It will be fun to see if it continues to improve and when it will be done "improving."

I really don't understand how a device like this or any DAC can change for the better over time, but am also hearing in the MA352 - but that could also be the Cornwalls. This system is all pretty much new within the last month or so.

Edit - got a audio-quality USB A to USB B cable today and that also seems to add clarity.

 

[Weejub]

Yea Wife claims no difference still, but I think I have worn her out on this testing LOL.

 

[Pondoro]

My experience. Only mine. I needed a new sound card to replace the (probably $2) chip on my motherboard. Not for sonic quality, newer software was locking up and it all traced to “ was the software accessing the sound card?”. But I played music from that PC so I went asking about sound card audio quality. The answers went down two roads: “All DACs sound the same!” or “If you don’t spend $250 you’ll never hear any improvement!” I gave up the audio quest and just bought a $40 ASUS internal card. But I noticed a big improvement! I don’t believe it was psychological because everyone told me I’d hear nothing. So for my other, more important, PC I bought a Schiit Modi for $99. I also noticed an improvement. I cannot compare the two systems fairly because the speakers and the rooms are different. I have no patience to go do blind, or double blind experiments to test a $40 sound card, nor even a $99 DAC. I’m sorry. Guys who review stuff for a living are welcome to do that, not me. I’m curious if I’d hear even more from a $500, or $1500, DAC, but I’m not THAT curious. If someone wanted to bring a $500 DAC over I’d buy beer. End of my story…

 

[whell]

My experience. Only mine. I needed a new sound card to replace the (probably $2) chip on my motherboard. Not for sonic quality, newer software was locking up and it all traced to “ was the software accessing the sound card?”. But I played music from that PC so I went asking about sound card audio quality. The answers went down two roads: “All DACs sound the same!” or “If you don’t spend $250 you’ll never hear any improvement!” I gave up the audio quest and just bought a $40 ASUS internal card. But I noticed a big improvement! I don’t believe it was psychological because everyone told me I’d hear nothing. So for my other, more important, PC I bought a Schiit Modi for $99. I also noticed an improvement. I cannot compare the two systems fairly because the speakers and the rooms are different. I have no patience to go do blind, or double blind experiments to test a $40 sound card, nor even a $99 DAC. I’m sorry. Guys who review stuff for a living are welcome to do that, not me. I’m curious if I’d hear even more from a $500, or $1500, DAC, but I’m not THAT curious. If someone wanted to bring a $500 DAC over I’d buy beer. End of my story…

Good story. Setting up a sound card on its own bus on your PC - and those ASUS cards also have a level of noise blocking circuitry - can make for some nice sound.

 

[coonmanx]

This thread now has me wanting to try the cheapest and most generic Chinese DAC that money can buy. Something like either one of these, which are probably the exact same thing. The cheaper one is $25 and ships from California. The other one is about $30 but ships from China...

I tried plugging a cable into the audio out from the computer and then running it into the bedroom system but it sounded pretty flat. So it would be fun to experiment with a cheap DAC like that, just for fun.

 

[coonmanx]

A bit surprised that the coaxial and optical appear to be outputs and not inputs. So USB is the only input, which would be fine for me.

Is PCM2704 any good?

 

[coonmanx]

Actually here is an even cheaper one at $17. Maybe we should have a cheap DAC shootout... LOL.

 

[gvl]

A bit surprised that the coaxial and optical appear to be outputs and not inputs. So USB is the only input, which would be fine for me.

Is PCM2704 any good?

Not good, don't waste your money. Spend a bit more and get something like Schiit Modi3 or JDS Labs Atom DAC+ or Topping D10S.

 

[mgosdin]

This thread now has me wanting to try the cheapest and most generic Chinese DAC that money can buy. Something like either one of these, which are probably the exact same thing. The cheaper one is $25 and ships from California. The other one is about $30 but ships from China...

I have one of that second external DAC you showed ( They ship under a variety of brand names, mine is SIGNSTEC and appears to be the same DAC. ) and it is noticeably better than the built-in PC audio, which is not bad on it's own.

In my experience once you've spent about $40 or so dollars on an external DAC the improvements come more slowly as the $ cost escalates dramatically.

For the record I have three Raspberry Pi based streamers that I built with $10 USB C Phone Dongles. Those streamers beat the SIGNSTEC external DAC handily in terms of sound quality. Go figure.

Mark Gosdin

 

[gvl]

You want at least the USB input to be asynchronous in 2021, those PCM2704 based devices are not.

 

[Pondoro]

I’d love to see a comparison of “ all the $30-$150” DAC’s, with the control be “free built in motherboard DACs.” But that is a wide field. Assembling a collection of ten to twenty low cost DACs raises the question, “Why not just buy one expensive DAC and sit back happily?”

 

[gvl]

There's plenty of $100-$200 DACs that are better than good enough, I suppose they can be called expensive for some.

 

[Pondoro]

It’s all relative. I just started listening to a review of a DAC. When I heard that the cost was $13k I lost interest. I would like to hear a $500 to $1500 DAC versus the stuff we are discussing here, say $30-$150. I’m not talking about reviews where every product “lifts the veil” nor blind testing. Just an hour with one and then an hour with the other.