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DACs: Cheap vs Expensive

I have actually circled back to the under $1K bucket after initially starting with an Audio-GD balanced DAC (ESS9018) some years back. From there I went to a Gungnir DS, a Metrum Onyx and then a Yggdrasil (which never jelled in my system) before getting the BiFrost 2. I had another Sabre-based DAC in there as well but can't remember which it was. So I'm looking forward to hearing how the Topping gear works out.
 
I have read great things about both Topping and Schiit in the low price range, I went with Schiit because I read the book and liked their attitude. I have been happy, but I can't say Topping is better or worse, I have never heard one.
 
Pondoro said:
Please tell us what differences you note.
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Will do but it will be a while still as we're moving into a new place and it will take time to set things up. Wanted to surprise the wife with a new set up and the DAC was the last item on the list. I've been very pleased with the BiFrost 2 so we'll see how things go. I was going to keep the D90SE for our main system. But once the wife sees it has Bluetooth she'll probably glom it up as she does a lot of streaming from her phone and tablet.
 
mozcho said:
How about this one? The unit is worth more than my entire system and then some, guess I'll give it a pass...

Chord DAVE & M-Scaler review - $15,000
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Chump change. The DCS Vivaldi DAC is $35,999. The Transport is $41,999. The Master Clock is $14,999. The Upsampler is $21,999.

DCS has the Ring DAC. They invented it and AFAIK they are the only ones to use it.

FWIW, the look of Chord's gear is an instant turn off to me.
 
Blind tests are fine for those who can avoid bias when listening normally (i.e. sighted). For the rest of us they're of academic interest only when choosing a DAC because normal, day to day listening includes bias.
 
cpt_paranoia said:
I think i might find that they all sound like my existing DAC...
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Unless some of the test DACs are wildly bad I think you are correct here.

Rabbit hole: If I transfer from digital to analog with one high quality DAC, then digitize with an ADC, then reconvert to analog with a different DAC are the losses more severe than using the same DAC twice? That is "interactions" between the DACs. Example - one DAC leaves out specific information and the other DAC leaves out different information? I realize that there are DAC unbelievers out there who say all DACs sound the same. I personally think a $100 DAC is fine, though I would be willing to listen to a more expensive DAC with an open mind. So my belief in DACs runs out somewhere north of $100. But still, would two different $100 DACs in a row have a different effect than the same one twice? Or two $1000 DACs?
 
JoeESP9 said:
It's USB powered. I connect mine to a powered USB (analog power supply) hub. I'm not sure if there's any difference....
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In my very recent (yesterday) experience there is no difference but I had other uses for the hub so no big issue here. From my understanding of what Timmy from BB said these powered hubs are mainly meant for gaming peripherals like backlit mechanical keyboards, alien-looking mice and other stuff with lots of LED's. That makes sense to me. If you have a reasonably powerful PSU (say above 650w) then the power drawn from it by a DAC is insignificant.
 
Pondoro said:
Unless some of the test DACs are wildly bad I think you are correct here.

Rabbit hole: If I transfer from digital to analog with one high quality DAC, then digitize with an ADC, then reconvert to analog with a different DAC are the losses more severe than using the same DAC twice? That is "interactions" between the DACs. Example - one DAC leaves out specific information and the other DAC leaves out different information? I realize that there are DAC unbelievers out there who say all DACs sound the same. I personally think a $100 DAC is fine, though I would be willing to listen to a more expensive DAC with an open mind. So my belief in DACs runs out somewhere north of $100. But still, would two different $100 DACs in a row have a different effect than the same one twice? Or two $1000 DACs?
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LOL - love it.

Finance/Marketing guy input: If you boil that down to a new component called a "Multi Process DAC" you could have the best of both worlds where the digital data is double sampled on two different pre-conversion profiles with two different chip sets or some sheet, and the "best" of both samples is output to analog. You could then charge twice as much and do it through a premium brand to add extra $$.
 
Stereotyper said:
In my very recent (yesterday) experience there is no difference but I had other uses for the hub so no big issue here. From my understanding of what Timmy from BB said these powered hubs are mainly meant for gaming peripherals like backlit mechanical keyboards, alien-looking mice and other stuff with lots of LED's. That makes sense to me. If you have a reasonably powerful PSU (say above 650w) then the power drawn from it by a DAC is insignificant.
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I use a powered USB hub for the D-10 because I'm using a laptop with an external HDD powered by the same hub. I already had the hub. The original PS for it was replaced by an analog PS I built. I had the parts on hand so there was no OOP expense.

Does the analog power supply make a difference? I can't hear any difference. That doesn't mean there isn't any difference. If nothing else I have peace of mind about computer/wall wart noise polluting the signal from the DAC.
 
whell said:
If you're in the $400 range, you might consider something like this:

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_252PBS2DS/Pro-Ject-Pre-Box-S2-Digital-Silver.html?cc=07&tp=60845

It’s an open box/ scratch and dent but has full mfg warranty. It has everything you need and more. I wouldn’t get at all excited about MQA support, but the dual mono ESS Sabre DAC chips get me jazzed, plus preamp capabilities and remote control.
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FWIW, That`s what DAC I use, but black, and for nearly a yr. in use powered 24/7/~365, I`m very, very happy with it`s SQ, small foot print form factor, & remote.
Shortly after I purchased it off Amazon, my long time Hi-Fi friend after hearing it in my house`s various stereo systems, promptly ordered one (his first stand alone DAC).

In my digital music configuration, I use S/PDIF coax to my Pro-Ject DAC via a HQ 4X1 remote controlled S/PDIF switcher so I can feed my 4 different S/PDIF coax connected devices to the Pro-Ject Pre box S-2.

I HQ convert my A/V rack`s digital music laptop`s USB output to S/PDIF, via a now discontinued Peachtree X1 USB to S/PDIF coax. or TosLink output converter powered by a 4 amp rated analog wall wart hub.
So I can`t speak about it`s USB SQ performance.

One of my best, $400.00USD priced at that time spent, for the most bang for the buck audio purchases in recent memory.

IMHO/E, a attractively priced & made in Belgium DAC to consider.

Good luck, moscho, with whatever DAC choice you choose, Sir.

Ciao
 
botrytis said:
The point being that for deciding which DAC is sounds better, blind allows the biases to be ignored, unlike sighted listening and this is the issue.
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But when listening normally, biases are in play and cannot be ignored. So why listen in a non-representative manner, other than for academic interest?
 
botrytis said:
Because one wants the best objectively sounding DAC. That is why.
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Here 'one' means you? As I already said that's of academic interest only as everyone's going to be listening subjectively in practice. Normal listening is sighted.
 
How do you prove that blind testing lets you choose "the best" equipment? I buy the intuitive assumption that blind testing removes biases. If someone is a die hard tube fan a blind test is the only way to get a fair evaluation of a tube versus a transistor amp. If someone designed a circuit personally then only a blind test would prove whether they actually liked the results better than a comparable circuit, or the predecessor design, because we generally would favor our personal design. But how can you prove that blind testing lets you pick what is "best"? That assumes an objective proof of what is best, if you have an objective proof of what is best you do not need any listening test. On the other hand if you want to choose between two DACs, to see which one you "like the best", I will submit that there is no objective standard. You will like what you like. I cannot come by later and say, "You chose wrong!" Whatever you like best you like best, full stop.
 
Agree with above, all I know is "I" like what "I" like, I wouldn't expect to like someone else's set up or them mine.
 
Pondoro said:
That assumes an objective proof of what is best, if you have an objective proof of what is best you do not need any listening test
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Blind listening testing is a means to determine your subjective preference. At least, on the basis of how something sounds. It is supposed to remove biases for price, how it looks, brand name, etc. If you choose to ignore the results of your own blind listening tests, and choose something else, that's fine, but you must then acknowledge that you are buying for reasons other than purely how it sounds.

The fact that we all have different subjective preferences for how something sounds is why i find other people's listening reviews to be of little value.
 
GChief said:
I do not get that view. Is it from lack of exposure/experience to/with great systems? I have heard many “great” systems over the years and they all sound… great, even when tweaked for personal preferences good is good. Not including a couple local AK’ers I get to hear 7 or so good systems (and the changes made) on a fairly regular bases, none of them sound bad even when the owner has a heavy EQ hand.

Edit: most of the time any problems are with those rooms and not the equipment.
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I think you are correct that great systems will sound great. I personally think chasing differences in "good" or "great" DACs is unnecessary. I do believe people can hear differences. I oppose the call for blind testing at every juncture. I've never done it. I build stringed and beaten instruments. I can hear differences in them. I'm not a DAC expert, I buy my $100 DAC and just listen to music. Let the DAC experts test them, blind or sighted. It is their passion, not mine.
 
Pondoro said:
I think you are correct that great systems will sound great. I personally think chasing differences in "good" or "great" DACs is unnecessary. I do believe people can hear differences. I oppose the call for blind testing at every juncture. I've never done it. I build stringed and beaten instruments. I can hear differences in them. I'm not a DAC expert, I buy my $100 DAC and just listen to music. Let the DAC experts test them, blind or sighted. It is their passion, not mine.
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I spent most of my adult life analyzing sound… I have no problem hearing small differences, but there is a lot of money invested my training to do so. I use the same techniques when evaluating changes to my room or system.
 
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