quicksilverbud
New Member
great great room... I have a deadicated room as well and yours is killer all the way.
an inspiration
sean
an inspiration
sean
Dedicated listening room
- Thread starter Billfort
- Start date
Billfort
Addicted Member
Thanks again guys.
Yes Jay, it’s kinda sad the way the mass marketers abandoned 2 channel audio but I suppose it’s easy to see why – HT/surround was a whole new thing and a great way to sell more stuff, all those amp channels, subs, speakers and even remixed multi-channel versions of old recordings are great ways to separate more people from their money. I’m not against HT/surround or anything but the more my 2 channel system evolves (including the room), the less I care to mess with multi-channel.
A few years back, I figured I better jump on this HT bandwagon too and dropped a hefty sum (for me) on it, buying speakers I could stomach (I heard a LOT that made me cringe) and a decent enough receiver that I figured I could use external amps with and upgrade down the road if I liked the experience. What happened was that I found I don’t really care for HT that much and there is no way in hell an HT system is going to work for me when it comes to music.
I still use the HT junk in another room but probably won’t bother upgrading it, my thumping dinosaur stomping sub has been broken for years and I don’t care, I even steal the surround speakers on a regular basis for other systems and don’t miss the bullets zipping around behind me in the least. Actually, based on what I hear in movie theatres these days, I DON”T want that experience at home anyway – horrible, ice-pick in the forehead sound with bloated booming bass played at ridiculous volume levels, no thanks.
On the bass thing Mark, unfortunately, the best thing I did to smooth out the bass response was to move
. Based on the listening rooms I’ve had, the theory stuff works and starting with the right room size is all important – if room dimensions are multiples of each other or even worse, the same on 2 or 3 sides, controlling bass response will be a real challenge.
Of course most have to live with what they got and I certainly did for several years. Speaker and listening position changes can help a lot and electronic EQ probably works (although definitely not for me) but I suspect the most effective measure is bass traps. The problem with these is that to be effective at low frequencies, they are big, have zero WAF and are probably DIY; not something you can grab at your local stereo emporium.
Mine are a compromise as I only had the ceiling cavity to work with but I did calculate the panel perforation percentage to target my 75Hz problem frequency and got to position them right in the corners, I do think they are working to some extent. I intended to build some large (floor to ceiling, 24” diameter) stand-alone columns tuned to this frequency as well for placement in the back corners but I’m in no rush as things sound pretty balanced now. I have heard of people using volumes adjacent to their listening rooms like closets, crawlspaces or attics as huge helmholtz resonator chambers behind tuned perforation panels or slots which is probably the ultimate but obviously only possible in the right house and only for the truly insane
.
Yes Jay, it’s kinda sad the way the mass marketers abandoned 2 channel audio but I suppose it’s easy to see why – HT/surround was a whole new thing and a great way to sell more stuff, all those amp channels, subs, speakers and even remixed multi-channel versions of old recordings are great ways to separate more people from their money. I’m not against HT/surround or anything but the more my 2 channel system evolves (including the room), the less I care to mess with multi-channel.
A few years back, I figured I better jump on this HT bandwagon too and dropped a hefty sum (for me) on it, buying speakers I could stomach (I heard a LOT that made me cringe) and a decent enough receiver that I figured I could use external amps with and upgrade down the road if I liked the experience. What happened was that I found I don’t really care for HT that much and there is no way in hell an HT system is going to work for me when it comes to music.
I still use the HT junk in another room but probably won’t bother upgrading it, my thumping dinosaur stomping sub has been broken for years and I don’t care, I even steal the surround speakers on a regular basis for other systems and don’t miss the bullets zipping around behind me in the least. Actually, based on what I hear in movie theatres these days, I DON”T want that experience at home anyway – horrible, ice-pick in the forehead sound with bloated booming bass played at ridiculous volume levels, no thanks.
On the bass thing Mark, unfortunately, the best thing I did to smooth out the bass response was to move
. Based on the listening rooms I’ve had, the theory stuff works and starting with the right room size is all important – if room dimensions are multiples of each other or even worse, the same on 2 or 3 sides, controlling bass response will be a real challenge.Of course most have to live with what they got and I certainly did for several years. Speaker and listening position changes can help a lot and electronic EQ probably works (although definitely not for me) but I suspect the most effective measure is bass traps. The problem with these is that to be effective at low frequencies, they are big, have zero WAF and are probably DIY; not something you can grab at your local stereo emporium.
Mine are a compromise as I only had the ceiling cavity to work with but I did calculate the panel perforation percentage to target my 75Hz problem frequency and got to position them right in the corners, I do think they are working to some extent. I intended to build some large (floor to ceiling, 24” diameter) stand-alone columns tuned to this frequency as well for placement in the back corners but I’m in no rush as things sound pretty balanced now. I have heard of people using volumes adjacent to their listening rooms like closets, crawlspaces or attics as huge helmholtz resonator chambers behind tuned perforation panels or slots which is probably the ultimate but obviously only possible in the right house and only for the truly insane
.
"......I used a combination of open and perforated ceiling panels tuned to deal with the ‘problem’ frequencies and balance out the room reverb time. Tearing down the drywall and stuffing the joists was an ugly job but the room acoustics where transformed with this change.
The new ceiling tiles are constructed from plywood panels of various perforation percentages covered in black speaker grill cloth – large quantities of which I bought on sale from PartsExpress. I drilled ¼” holes in the corner and side panels for a perforation percentage of approx. .18% which should concentrate absorption around the 75Hz problem frequency. I cut large holes in the panels over and between the listening position and speakers to allow some high/mid frequency absorption/diffusion at the first reflection points and to give the ceiling more apparent height – it’s just over 7’ in appearance to the cloth but more like 8’ to the underside of the upper floor.............."
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Bro, i gotta ask.... how did you know to do this? Why did you not use the perforated acoustic ceiling tiles from home depot ? Man, i hope you wore hearing protection; that had to be a thousand holes. I love your idea of using a pattern of open and perforated....
i just drywalled my ceiling...the room is now bright.:thumbsdn:..if i had to do it again....
i'd do it different....
The new ceiling tiles are constructed from plywood panels of various perforation percentages covered in black speaker grill cloth – large quantities of which I bought on sale from PartsExpress. I drilled ¼” holes in the corner and side panels for a perforation percentage of approx. .18% which should concentrate absorption around the 75Hz problem frequency. I cut large holes in the panels over and between the listening position and speakers to allow some high/mid frequency absorption/diffusion at the first reflection points and to give the ceiling more apparent height – it’s just over 7’ in appearance to the cloth but more like 8’ to the underside of the upper floor.............."
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Bro, i gotta ask.... how did you know to do this? Why did you not use the perforated acoustic ceiling tiles from home depot ? Man, i hope you wore hearing protection; that had to be a thousand holes. I love your idea of using a pattern of open and perforated....
i just drywalled my ceiling...the room is now bright.:thumbsdn:..if i had to do it again....
i'd do it different....
Billfort
Addicted Member
Well, I read the 2 books mentioned here (many times) and kind of spun the idea off based on what I learned from them applied to the problems at hand.
A few reasons for the cloth covered wood panels;
- Past experience told me that wood paneling can sound very nice in the right application.
- Cloth covering them let me do what I wanted as far as cutting holes in them while maintaining a consistent look for the ceiling.
- I wanted to ‘open’ the ceiling up in the right places to acoustically expose the fiberglass stuffing and joists to achieve some dispersion and absorption at the first reflection points. I didn’t want to overdue it though because I’ve had rooms before that where too dead and find it much more effective to distribute the absorptive stuff where it has the best effect.
- These ‘open’ sections seem to give the room more apparent height which was important in a basement room. Making use of ‘dispersion’ elements (the joists) above the ceiling height is a huge bonus in a basement – you can employ all sorts of dispersion structures directly on a surface but I sure didn’t want to give up the ceiling height in this case.
- By drilling my own holes to a calculated perforation percentage and using the enclosed back volume to form large, tuned ‘perf panel’ bass traps I could target very specific frequencies for absorption and place the traps in the room where they would be most effective (the corners).
- The whole room was viewed as a ‘system’ where I tried to achieve a decent balance of absorption and reflection with a favorable reverb time across the frequency range. To do this I needed a lot of frequency specific tuning devices and the large panel over a fiber-filled column area the ceiling gave me was all I needed – providing I was careful with what I did everywhere else.
At the end of the day (well, many days) it was worth it and this room is the best thing I’ve ever done for bringing music home. I still get laughs when my wife jokes about me down there tearing out perfectly good drywall and attacking stacks of wood with my drill and jigsaw but many who have heard the results seem to ‘get it’ in the end.
After building this thing I can’t say enough about room tuning to get the best out of your audio.
Billfort
Addicted Member
Just noticed I hadn't listed the text I used for all this.
I have 2 editions of;
Master Handbook of Acoustics By F. Alton Everest
One is a very early edition and it appears that the newest release is different again. The 2 I have are different enough that it's nice to have both but most of the material is covered in both editions.
I have 2 editions of;
Master Handbook of Acoustics By F. Alton Everest
One is a very early edition and it appears that the newest release is different again. The 2 I have are different enough that it's nice to have both but most of the material is covered in both editions.
Spectrum77
Super Member
I printed a photo of Billfort's finished room and hung it on my wall for inspiration while transforming a granny-flat to listening room. That picture kept me going! Truly amazing stuff.
Strangeband
AK Member and Ale Monger
Simply superb on every level.
Copa1934
My ears are bleeding
I'm wondering if this would be good to add or move to the new Treatments area given the effort and detail to making a very functional and enjoyable listening room.It’s been a few years but I finally got into a position where I could build a dedicated listening room. I did this once before and no piece of gear I ever tried made as big an improvement in my system’s performance as did setting everything up in a room constructed and optimized for 2 channel audio.
Before I get into all the boring design details, here is a picture of the finished room with my stuff positioned where it pretty much settled in after a weekend of moving things around.
Where I started.
- basement room in a detached, older house with a decent size lot – this was kind of important for me as I’ve lived in my share of apartments and townhouses and I’ve really come to the realization that I can’t have any neighbors on the other side of the walls.A quick music test-drive of the room confirmed what I thought when I first saw the room before buying the house – size, dimension ratios and solid construction where supporting nice bass but it was bright, bright, bright!
- The recroom I’d be using was a good basic starting point with dimensions of 12.2’ x 22.6’ and a ceiling height of 7.3’. My wife is cool with me using this room for ‘audio only’ but I wired and built ascetically so that conversion to a ‘home theater’ room is easy enough. An HT room doesn’t interest me but it’s obviously more acceptable to the general public and would make more sense from a property value perspective.
- The previous owner did a nice job of finishing the room with drywall on a 2x4 sub-frame over 4 solid block walls, voids filled with fiberglass insulation. The ceiling was also drywall and the floor vinyl tiles on poured concrete.
- Things I considered ‘obstacles’ to deal with layout wise are 1 short (10” x 10”) bulkhead, two 2’x4’ windows high in 1 side wall, the breaker panel in 1 corner and auxiliary baseboard heating under the windows (the house has forced air gas heat).
It is easy enough to fix the ‘bright’ problem but I wanted to go further than this. I started by running the numbers for the room and found the size isn’t really too bad as is – problem frequencies would be around 75Hz and 230Hz so I could concentrate some absorption at those frequencies and play with seating position to offset peaks.
71Challenger
Super Member
Bill, obviously you put a lot of thought and research into that room. The results are visually astounding and I can only guess at the sound.
You have made us all look like the rank amateurs we are.
I tip a glass of Jim Beam to you sir.
You have made us all look like the rank amateurs we are.
I tip a glass of Jim Beam to you sir.
