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Diehard Bose Head

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My Bose are 205, 301, 501, 601, 901/II, 901/III

Currently I am in love anew for my tiny 205, I did not listen to them for a long time. I think the 205 a pretty rare here, I do not know why, they are not that bad! Very fine rich sound in my opinion for such small units.
 
If the Pioneer EQ sounds better than the one specifically designed for 901s it may be in need of some maintenance. A re-capping may be in order.

Nope, I just checked under the lid and it was recapped, upgraded RCA jacks and a copper wrapped transformer too. :thmbsp: I bought this pair of series IV 901's w/ cloth surrounds from a friend so I wasn't sure if the EQ had been rebuilt until I looked.
The 901 EQ has amplifers and 2 tone controls for lows & highs........using the Pioneer EQ and bypassing the 901 EQ I'm able to shape the sound a lot better with 14/28 controls then with 2 :smoke:


~Mike
 
Nope, I just checked under the lid and it was recapped, upgraded RCA jacks and a copper wrapped transformer too. :thmbsp: I bought this pair of series IV 901's w/ cloth surrounds from a friend so I wasn't sure if the EQ had been rebuilt until I looked.
The 901 EQ has amplifers and 2 tone controls for lows & highs........using the Pioneer EQ and bypassing the 901 EQ I'm able to shape the sound a lot better with 14/28 controls then with 2 :smoke:


~Mike

Cool . That is pretty neat that the Pioneer EQ outdid the Bose EQ . Don't tell Mr. Bose .
 
If you're not super impressed with most studio monitors try a pair of Equator Audio D5s.

After having a pair at my work... I'm a believer. They kick ass. I've owned tons of "studio monitors" but the equators are in a different league altogether.
 
I came across a pretty nice set of Vintage ESS Heil AMT Speakers with a front 12" woofer with a passive 12" radiator on the back with an Air Motion Transformer tweeter on the top..........I remember these from back in the day I thought they kicked ass from what I can remember :scratch2:

Does anybody have or had a set of these BITD or currently using a set now.

~Mike
 
Not mine, but I listened to my friend's ESS AMT-1s a LOT back in the 70's.

My impression was they had a impressive (if a bit 'hot') top end, and a mediocre everything else. He eventually confessed he preferred the sound of his second pair of speakers, some InterAudio by Bose, to the the ESS.

The Heil drivers are getting scarce and hence are collectable these days.
 
Well then why are you posting here? The OP didn't ask for any advice and he wasn't trying to get anyone to justify his choice. And are we supposed to be impressed with your tube driven electrostatics? I don't want to start any acrimony here, but why would somebody put down Bose, JBL, and Klipcsh, then turn right around and say "like what you like"?

I didn't take it as he was putting any speakers down. I took it as he was saying beauty is in the ear of the beholder. Our ears are shaped differently than each other. Add another variable of we are looking for different things when we enjoy our music and that's where opinion comes in.

I love the Bose, Klipsch, JBL sound. I also love the KEF, 70's Mission speakers and much more.
 
I know this thread is kind of old but ...

Sorry about my math. I forgot that receivers connect multiple pairs of speakers in parallel. I've never run more than one pair. So, it's not something I think about very much.

The speakers you use are not considered to be a difficult load anyway.

Magneplanars, electrostatics in general and all systems with Watkins woofers are generally considered to be difficult loads for one reason or another. This is exactly what I said that started this whole discourse.

Electrostatics can present a highly reactive load that in the case of Acoustats also goes down to 2 Ohms. Magneplanars are a fairly constant 4 Ohm load that needs lots of current. Watkins woofers have a load that goes below 2 Ohms and still needs lots of current. All three of these speakers are not good candidates for any receiver based system because of the current limitations inherent in the compromises made with the power supplies in many receivers.

The impedance of any speaker varies wildly depending upon which frequency it is playing, which is why it is known as nominal impedance. There is no such thing as a full range speaker system that has a "fairly constant Ohm load". Speakers that only play a very narrow frequency range can have a fairly constant impedance.

BTW: I didn't mention the speakers that are probably the most difficult load of all, Apogee Scintillas. They can be strapped for 4 or 1 Ohm operation. They pretty much put Krell on the map because nothing else could drive them. Yes, I've heard them at length and yes, they sound a lot better when strapped for 1 Ohm.

That's funny. In the car audio world, a 1 ohm load is nothing. Rockford Fosgate for example used to make amplifiers stable to 0.5 ohms (in the 1990s before they "sold out"). They were small unregulated amps, rated at something like 25 watts x 2 @ 4 ohms, which translates to 200 watts x 2 @ 0.5 ohms, and there were many people that pushed them to .25 ohms without killing them, which brought the power to 400 watts x 2 out of a little "50 watt" amp. The idea behind it was that in the competitions of the day there were power classes which went by the amplifier's rating at 4 ohms (which is the standard for car audio), so if the "50 watt" amplifier was designed to be stable at a very low impedance it had a big advantage over a competitor's "50 watt" that was only stable to 2 ohms (making it a 100 watt amplifier).

As I mentioned, all car audio amplifiers are stable at 4 ohms, and nearly all of them are also stable at 2 ohms. Most of them are unregulated, which means you get the full doubling of power for half the impedance. Running them at half the impedance for which they are rated-stable at (e.g. 1 ohm stereo or 2 ohms bridged for a typical 2 ohms stereo / 4 ohms bridged rated amp) is very common with the quality brands.

A rating of 160WPC @ 8 Ohms and only 200WPC at 4 Ohms says there is some serious current limiting or general inadequacy in the power supply. Ideally the rating at 4 Ohms would be double that at 8 Ohms. The closer any amplifier comes to doubling wattage as the load impedance is cut in half the better it is at driving low impedance or difficult loads.

Yes, a basic amplifier will double its power when the impedance is cut in half; it has nothing to do with adequacy or inadequacy in the power supply; it will do it; it has no choice in the matter, and will continue to do it each time you cut the impedance in half right up until the point that it self-destructs.

Now, in the case of an amplifier that is rated at "160WPC @ 8 Ohms and only 200WPC at 4 Ohms", the designers obviously didn't trust it to be stable at 4 ohms without some protection/limiting circuitry to keep the current down, but regardless of that, it is still stable at 4 ohms because of that circuitry, meaning it would have no problems at all with 4 ohm speakers. Amplifiers that aren't deemed stable at 4 ohms by their manufacturer are not given a 4 ohm power rating at all in their spec sheet.

Also, most any amplifier can be safely run at ~half of its rated impedance under typical circumstances. The reason for this is that when an amplifier is rated stable at e.g. 4 ohms, that is at full power output (at a given THD threshold) into a static 4 ohm resistor. In real world usage, not only is the actual impedance often higher than the rated nominal impedance of the speakers due to the dynamic nature of music and the fact that higher frequencies have higher impedances, but the amplifier is also rarely being driven at full power. This gives you some leeway for running lower nominal impedance speakers than the amp is rated for, assuming you don't plan to play a 1 kHz test tone with it cranked up to 11.
 
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I know this thread is kind of old but ...



The impedance of any speaker varies wildly depending upon which frequency it is playing, which is why it is known as nominal impedance. There is no such thing as a full range speaker system that has a "fairly constant Ohm load". Speakers that only play a very narrow frequency range can have a fairly constant impedance.

I suggest you look into Magneplanars which I specifically mentioned. They are known for having relatively benign load characteristics.

That's funny. In the car audio world, a 1 ohm load is nothing. Rockford Fosgate for example used to make amplifiers stable to 0.5 ohms (in the 1990s before they "sold out"). They were small unregulated amps, rated at something like 25 watts x 2 @ 4 ohms, which translates to 200 watts x 2 @ 0.5 ohms, and there were many people that pushed them to .25 ohms without killing them, which brought the power to 400 watts x 2 out of a little "50 watt" amp. The idea behind it was that in the competitions of the day there were power classes which went by the amplifier's rating at 4 ohms (which is the standard for car audio), so if the "50 watt" amplifier was designed to be stable at a very low impedance it had a big advantage over a competitor's "50 watt" that was only stable to 2 ohms (making it a 100 watt amplifier).

As I mentioned, all car audio amplifiers are stable at 4 ohms, and nearly all of them are also stable at 2 ohms. Most of them are unregulated, which means you get the full doubling of power for half the impedance. Running them at half the impedance for which they are rated-stable at (e.g. 1 ohm stereo or 2 ohms bridged for a typical 2 ohms stereo / 4 ohms bridged rated amp) is very common with the quality brands.


Yes, a basic amplifier will double its power when the impedance is cut in half; it has nothing to do with adequacy or inadequacy in the power supply; it will do it; it has no choice in the matter, and will continue to do it each time you cut the impedance in half right up until the point that it self-destructs.

Now, in the case of an amplifier that is rated at "160WPC @ 8 Ohms and only 200WPC at 4 Ohms", the designers obviously didn't trust it to be stable at 4 ohms without some protection/limiting circuitry to keep the current down, but regardless of that, it is still stable at 4 ohms because of that circuitry, meaning it would have no problems at all with 4 ohm speakers. Amplifiers that aren't deemed stable at 4 ohms by their manufacturer are not given a 4 ohm power rating at all in their spec sheet.

This is not the car audio world!
Again you are mistaken. There are very few amplifiers intended for home use that actually double down. Most if not all of those amplifiers have a published 4 Ohm power rating.

This is not the car audio world. Very few home and/or studio speakers have impedance curves that dip down to one or two Ohms. The ones that I specifically mentioned do and have a reputation for being difficult to drive amp busters



Also, most any amplifier can be safely run at ~half of its rated impedance under typical circumstances. The reason for this is that when an amplifier is rated stable at e.g. 4 ohms, that is at full power output (at a given THD threshold) into a static 4 ohm resistor. In real world usage, not only is the actual impedance often higher than the rated nominal impedance of the speakers due to the dynamic nature of music and the fact that higher frequencies have higher impedances, but the amplifier is also rarely being driven at full power. This gives you some leeway for running lower nominal impedance speakers than the amp is rated for, assuming you don't plan to play a 1 kHz test tone with it cranked up to 11.

That's not entirely true. With many amplifiers made for home use an extremely low impedance load will cause them to go into protection mode at almost any volume. This is even more prevalent with the average receiver. There are several posters here who have Infinity speakers with Watkins woofers that have experienced amplifier shut down at moderate volumes. Those same amplifiers simply won't work with Apogee Scintilla's strapped for 1 Ohm operation.
 
I suggest you look into Magneplanars which I specifically mentioned. They are known for having relatively benign load characteristics.

Whether they have "relatively benign load characteristics" or not, it still doesn't equate to a "fairly constant Ohm load". As I said, there is no such thing as a full range speaker system that has a "fairly constant Ohm load". Only a speaker that's dedicated to a narrow frequency range can have a "fairly constant Ohm load", unless you play a test tone rather than music; then any speaker will have a dead constant ohm load.

This is not the car audio world!

I never said that it was. I was pointing out a funny (i.e., ironic) contrast. On the one hand you have some elaborate and expensive home audio receivers which are often not rated stable at 4 ohms, and on the other hand you can buy an el cheapo "Road Gear" car audio amp from Wal-Mart that's stable at 2 ohms.

Again you are mistaken.

Given that I wasn't mistaken in the first place, I can hardly be mistaken "again".

There are very few amplifiers intended for home use that actually double down. Most if not all of those amplifiers have a published 4 Ohm power rating.

I said that most car audio amplifiers are unrestricted (at least they used to be; I don't know about the current state of them).

This is not the car audio world.

Yes, you already pointed out this obvious and uncontested fact. See my response to it above.

Very few home and/or studio speakers have impedance curves that dip down to one or two Ohms. The ones that I specifically mentioned do and have a reputation for being difficult to drive amp busters

It doesn't matter what the individual pairs of off-the-shelf speakers out there have for a nominal impedance rating; you can can get whatever nominal impedance you want from your speaker system, either by building your own cabinets and choosing the drivers, or by using off-the-shelf speaker systems in various combinations. For example, if you have an amplifier that's stable at 1 ohm, you could could wire up 8 pairs of off-the-shelf 8 ohm speakers in parallel and you have your 1 ohm load. Or you could build a pair of cabinets, each containing eight 8 ohm drivers wired inside the cabinet in parallel and you have your 1 ohm load.

By the way, with regard to your following statement:

"They pretty much put Krell on the map because nothing else could drive them"

What does this "Krell" amplifier cost? I ask because I suspect you could get a 1-ohm-stable car audio amplifier plus a suitable 12 VDC power supply (e.g. 100+ amps, good for 1200+ watts) to run it for less money. You see, car audio isn't irrelevant to home audio. A $200 or $300 power supply can run a pretty healthy car audio amplifier from a wall outlet.

And with regard to your following statement:

"Yes, I've heard them at length and yes, they sound a lot better when strapped for 1 Ohm."

The impedance of the speakers doesn't affect their sound in and of itself, it only affects the current through the amplifier. Given the same amplifier, and assuming said amplifier isn't restricted to output the same amount of power at a lower impedance (like some JBL car audio amplifiers are) they are going to be getting a lot more power at 1 ohm than at 4 ohms, which would account for the difference you heard. However, amplifiers tend to increase distortion levels as the impedance of their load drops, so there is a downside to it. If I had a pair of speakers that could be configured for 1 ohm or 4 ohms (just as any pair of 2-ohm DVCs can be), and I wanted to feed them say 100 watts each, I'd rather wire them for 4 ohms and do it from a 100W x 2 @ 4 ohms amplifier than wire them for 1 ohm and do it from a 100W x 2 @ 1 ohm amplifier.

That's not entirely true. With many amplifiers made for home use an extremely low impedance load will cause them to go into protection mode at almost any volume. This is even more prevalent with the average receiver. There are several posters here who have Infinity speakers with Watkins woofers that have experienced amplifier shut down at moderate volumes. Those same amplifiers simply won't work with Apogee Scintilla's strapped for 1 Ohm operation.

If an average receiver rated stable for 8 ohm loads goes into protection mode driving a pair of 4 ohm speakers with ordinary music at moderate volume, it is either defective and in need of repair, or its 8 ohm rating was optimistic in the first place. For example, driving a 4 ohm load at half volume is electrically identical to driving an 8 ohm load at full volume. So any amplifier that can't handle a 4 ohm load at half volume can't handle an 8 ohm load at full volume either.

As far as a 1 ohm load goes, of course you shouldn't try that with an amplifier that's only rated stable to 8 ohms, but you could generally get away with it with an amplifier that is honestly rated stable to 2 ohms (like nearly all car audio amplifiers are). I wouldn't hesitate to hook those "Apogee Scintilla's strapped for 1 Ohm operation" up to my 1990s-manufactured Rockford Fosgate Power 1000a2, for example.

And getting back to the point, the OP's Pioneer receiver is rated stable to 4 ohms, so it obviously will be fine driving 4 ohm speakers.
 
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If staying with Bose is of interest to you, the 201 is a monitor-type speaker. It is not marketed as a "monitor", per se, but it's about the closest thing to it you'll find in the current Bose line-up.

Beyond that, the sky's the limit. A "monitor" can be anything from a little pair of 2-ways to a pair of B&W 801's. You've just gotta do a little leg work...or rather, ear work. There's a lot of good things out there. That new Paradigm "Shift" looks very interesting and is powered, to boot.
 

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Whether they have "relatively benign load characteristics" or not, it still doesn't equate to a "fairly constant Ohm load". As I said, there is no such thing as a full range speaker system that has a "fairly constant Ohm load". Only a speaker that's dedicated to a narrow frequency range can have a "fairly constant Ohm load", unless you play a test tone rather than music; then any speaker will have a dead constant ohm load.



I never said that it was. I was pointing out a funny (i.e., ironic) contrast. On the one hand you have some elaborate and expensive home audio receivers which are often not rated stable at 4 ohms, and on the other hand you can buy an el cheapo "Road Gear" car audio amp from Wal-Mart that's stable at 2 ohms.



Given that I wasn't mistaken in the first place, I can hardly be mistaken "again".



I said that most car audio amplifiers are unrestricted (at least they used to be; I don't know about the current state of them).



Yes, you already pointed out this obvious and uncontested fact. See my response to it above.



It doesn't matter what the individual pairs of off-the-shelf speakers out there have for a nominal impedance rating; you can can get whatever nominal impedance you want from your speaker system, either by building your own cabinets and choosing the drivers, or by using off-the-shelf speaker systems in various combinations. For example, if you have an amplifier that's stable at 1 ohm, you could could wire up 8 pairs of off-the-shelf 8 ohm speakers in parallel and you have your 1 ohm load. Or you could build a pair of cabinets, each containing eight 8 ohm drivers wired inside the cabinet in parallel and you have your 1 ohm load.

By the way, with regard to your following statement:

"They pretty much put Krell on the map because nothing else could drive them"

What does this "Krell" amplifier cost? I ask because I suspect you could get a 1-ohm-stable car audio amplifier plus a suitable 12 VDC power supply (e.g. 100+ amps, good for 1200+ watts) to run it for less money. You see, car audio isn't irrelevant to home audio. A $200 or $300 power supply can run a pretty healthy car audio amplifier from a wall outlet.

And with regard to your following statement:

"Yes, I've heard them at length and yes, they sound a lot better when strapped for 1 Ohm."

The impedance of the speakers doesn't affect their sound in and of itself, it only affects the current through the amplifier. Given the same amplifier, and assuming said amplifier isn't restricted to output the same amount of power at a lower impedance (like some JBL car audio amplifiers are) they are going to be getting a lot more power at 1 ohm than at 4 ohms, which would account for the difference you heard. However, amplifiers tend to increase distortion levels as the impedance of their load drops, so there is a downside to it. If I had a pair of speakers that could be configured for 1 ohm or 4 ohms (just as any pair of 2-ohm DVCs can be), and I wanted to feed them say 100 watts each, I'd rather wire them for 4 ohms and do it from a 100W x 2 @ 4 ohms amplifier than wire them for 1 ohm and do it from a 100W x 2 @ 1 ohm amplifier.



If an average receiver rated stable for 8 ohm loads goes into protection mode driving a pair of 4 ohm speakers with ordinary music at moderate volume, it is either defective and in need of repair, or its 8 ohm rating was optimistic in the first place. For example, driving a 4 ohm load at half volume is electrically identical to driving an 8 ohm load at full volume. So any amplifier that can't handle a 4 ohm load at half volume can't handle an 8 ohm load at full volume either.

As far as a 1 ohm load goes, of course you shouldn't try that with an amplifier that's only rated stable to 8 ohms, but you could generally get away with it with an amplifier that is honestly rated stable to 2 ohms (like nearly all car audio amplifiers are). I wouldn't hesitate to hook those "Apogee Scintilla's strapped for 1 Ohm operation" up to my 1990s-manufactured Rockford Fosgate Power 1000a2, for example.

And getting back to the point, the OP's Pioneer receiver is rated stable to 4 ohms, so it obviously will be fine driving 4 ohm speakers.

When you've actually heard Apogee speakers strapped for 1 Ohm and 4 Ohm operation, looked at an impedance plot for a pair of Magneplanars and/or listened to them come back and we'll discuss things.

If car stereo gear was in any way comparable to "good" home gear at least a few members here would use it for their home system. That virtually no one does should tell you something.

Once again; this site is about home gear.
 
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When you've actually heard Apogee speakers strapped for 1 Ohm and 4 Ohm operation, looked at an impedance plot for a pair of Magneplanars and/or listened to them come back and we'll discuss things.

Given that you failed to respond to everything I typed (even your brief response above didn't manage to relevantly address anything I typed, i.e., it is a non sequitur), your tacit concession on the whole matter is noted.

Edit: You added some content; nothing relevant so your tacit concession remains noted, but I'll address it anyway:

If car stereo gear was in any way comparable to "good" home gear at least a few members here would use it for their home system. That virtually no one does should tell you something.

This is not only a fallacy (your "then" claim is in no way an inevitable result of your "if" statement), but it also strongly suggests that you know little to nothing about car audio equipment. Additionally, it is irrelevant to anything I typed, so consider it dismissed out of hand.

Once again; this site is about home gear.

Also irrelevant to anything I typed, thus dismissed.
 
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My original response is more than sufficient. this is not a car stereo site and most (virtually all) receivers and integrated amps do not like and don't function very well into low impedance loads. That's a fact.

The additional fact that those same devices do not show an increase in output power of double the 8 Ohm rating into a 4 Ohm load is a certain indicator of current limiting in the power supply. This is simple electronics. A rudimentary knowledge of Ohms law will explain and support this.
 
Firstly, I'm not knocking BOSS so I hope no one takes it that way.

I just wanted to mention that I can stand 2.5 meters to the outside and 2 meters back of either of my speakers, and still get a stereo image/sound, some speakers do have good off axis performance.

Bottom line is that you love the sound you have, and that's what this hobby is all about, enjoy :music:
 
My original response is more than sufficient.

Your original response was refuted, and you've tacitly conceded that point as well.

this is not a car stereo site

You can repeat this bit of common knowledge as much as you want, but it won't make it any less irrelevant.

and most (virtually all) receivers and integrated amps do not like and don't function very well into low impedance loads. That's a fact.

I've already addressed this in detail, and you have tacitly conceded to all of it. Additionally, the OP's Pioneer receiver is stable at 4 ohms, that's a fact that you yourself pointed out (unwittingly it seems) when you posted the specifications for it. Now, which off-the-shelf home speakers out there have a nominal impedance of less than 4 ohms?

The additional fact that those same devices do not show an increase in output power of double the 8 Ohm rating into a 4 Ohm load is a certain indicator of current limiting in the power supply.

That doesn't matter. Regardless of how the designers made it so it would be stable at 4 ohms, it is in fact stable at 4 ohms, which is all that matters. The concern with running an amplifier at a lower impedance that it is rated for is that it will overheat or otherwise become unstable due to too much current flowing through it. That's not a concern with the OP's amplifier used with 4 ohm speakers, because it was designed to be stable at 4 ohms. They took the approach of using current limiting circuitry to make it so, but the only thing that matters is that they did indeed make it so, and it will put out 200 watts x 2 @ 4 ohms, which is nothing to sneeze at.

There is at least one amplifier that I know of that is designed to put out the same wattage whether it is a 4 ohm load or a 1 ohm load or anything in between, and whether the input voltage is ~11 VDC or ~14 VDC. It is a fully regulated car audio amplifier made by JL Audio. The fact that it doesn't double its wattage when the impedance is halved doesn't in any way suggest that it has difficulty with low impedance loads. In fact, it handles them with ease because it was designed to, just as the OP's receiver will handle a 4 ohm load with ease because it is designed to. That current limiting circuitry is the very thing which allows that particular amplifier to handle the 4 ohm load. If they hadn't included it, the amplifier would put out 320 watts x 2 at 4 ohms and potentially cook itself.

This is simple electronics. A rudimentary knowledge of Ohms law will explain and support this.

This is comically ironic, considering everything we've typed establishes I have a far greater grasp of "simple electronics" and "Ohm's Law" than you do. Your idea that the very thing which designers of some amps use to allow them to be stable at X ohms, is actually a thing which prevents them from being stable at X ohms, is utterly absurd.
 
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Joined in 2007, 11 posts. Mostly argumentative. In a post about Bose speakers that 99.9% of the time goes south on this forum, yet does not mention them.

My guess is fake nOOb :scratch2:

invasion-of-the-body-snatchers-1978.jpg
 
Joined in 2007, 11 posts. Mostly argumentative. In a post about Bose speakers that 99.9% of the time goes south on this forum, yet does not mention them.

My guess is fake nOOb :scratch2:

What exactly is a "fake nOOb"? Also, what does anything else you typed have to do with anything? I appreciate you breaking out your Junior Detective Kit™ on account of me, but unfortunately it seems to have led you astray, i.e., deep into left field.
 
What exactly is a "fake nOOb"? Also, what does anything else you typed have to do with anything? I appreciate you breaking out your Junior Detective Kit™ on account of me, but unfortunately it seems to have led you astray, i.e., deep into left field.

GFYS. You take offense to a dead Bose thread to make an arguement about car stereo equipment.
Why don't you go away for another 6 years and report back after puberty? Good luck you smooth talker you :boring:
 
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GFYS. You open a dead Bose thread to make an arguement about car stereo equipment.

Reading disability alert. In reality (you know, as opposed to your reading-disability-fueled alternate version of reality), the point of my post pertained to the suitability of the OP's receiver for 4 ohm speakers, because someone had falsely claimed it was unsuitable.

Why don't you go away for another 6 years and report back after puberty? Good luck you smooth talker you :boring:

Your laughable delusion-based non sequitur is dismissed.

Now, I said:

"What exactly is a "fake nOOb"?

Your reply = ?

I also said:

"Also, what does anything else you typed have to do with anything?"

Your reply = ?
 
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