Do DAC's that measure roughly the same sound different?

[karljansen]

It's impressive that he could tell the difference with such accuracy. My question is: could he do as well in the test listening through speakers in a room?

I have pretty trained ears and I still cannot tell between my $200 modern R2R DAC and my $2000 (in 1998 dollars) R2R DAC, through headphones (Sony MDR-7506, so not exactly audiophile grade) or through near field studio monitors in a room.

 

[Oasis8]

This article may define the reason for the different positions people take.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/are-you-sharpener-or-leveler

 

[whell]

It's impressive that he could tell the difference with such accuracy. My question is: could he do as well in the test listening through speakers in a room?

I have pretty trained ears and I still cannot tell between my $200 modern R2R DAC and my $2000 (in 1998 dollars) R2R DAC, through headphones (Sony MDR-7506, so not exactly audiophile grade) or through near field studio monitors in a room.

Yeah, I'm not sure I can either, but then my hearing isn't what it used to be.

I've never thought it was all that tough to distinguish between various elements of an audio system. Sonic differences listening to different brands of speakers, or even speakers by the same manufacturer at different price points are the easiest to discern. Amps and sources are possible to discern but tougher. Even among various levels of CD players was quite possible to notice differences.

To the authors point, discerning between difference stand alone DACs is possible, with a big asterisk. With DAC's were well within the realm of either:

- I can hear a subtle objective difference, but not sure if that difference is "better", or;
- I can hear a difference, but is that 2% difference worth the $1000 that I'd need to additionally spend to get it?

 

[drjohnnyfeva]

Yeah, I'm not sure I can either, but then my hearing isn't what it used to be.

I've never thought it was all that tough to distinguish between various elements of an audio system. Sonic differences listening to different brands of speakers, or even speakers by the same manufacturer at different price points are the easiest to discern. Amps and sources are possible to discern but tougher. Even among various levels of CD players was quite possible to notice differences.

To the authors point, discerning between difference stand alone DACs is possible, with a big asterisk. With DAC's were well within the realm of either:

- I can hear a subtle objective difference, but not sure if that difference is "better", or;
- I can hear a difference, but is that 2% difference worth the $1000 that I'd need to additionally spend to get it?

This is my experience too.

There are difference in sound when switching out DACs. I've never spent more than $130 on a DAC, but I've used five or six different ones, not including in-line headphone adapters with DACs, but they sound different too. The chips do their work slightly differently so why is it shocking that one could hear a difference? And it's not just the DAC ship itself, it's the other chips in the unit. If they have opamps, that's another area where a difference could be heard. The ubiquitous NE5532 opamp sounds different than a Muses8820 and both sound different than a Muses8920A and an OPA1612 sounds different from all of them. And I imagine if you tried Burston or Spakos opamps, they'd sound different to each other and the others mentioned.

I won't say sound better, other than subjectively for myself having listened to several DACs and other units with different opamps. I am a Sabre32 fan and have a couple DACs in PCs that use that chip. I also recently tested a VelvetSound AK DAC in an SMSL SU-1 against a Sabre32 ESS DAC in the SMSL PS200 Pro. For the system I was putting the DAC into, I preferred the SU-1 with the VelvetSound DAC. It was very subtle, but "better" to my ears in THAT system. Nothing else was changed in the input line other than the DAC itself - not volume, tone, or anything else, just the DAC.

I can't comment on $2000 DACs, but I would imagine there is a difference with those if compared to the $100 ones. Different might equate to better in someone elses system, but it might not too...

 

[Lavane]

This is my experience too.

There are difference in sound when switching out DACs. I've never spent more than $130 on a DAC, but I've used five or six different ones, not including in-line headphone adapters with DACs, but they sound different too. The chips do their work slightly differently so why is it shocking that one could hear a difference? And it's not just the DAC ship itself, it's the other chips in the unit. If they have opamps, that's another area where a difference could be heard. The ubiquitous NE5532 opamp sounds different than a Muses8820 and both sound different than a Muses8920A and an OPA1612 sounds different from all of them. And I imagine if you tried Burston or Spakos opamps, they'd sound different to each other and the others mentioned.

I won't say sound better, other than subjectively for myself having listened to several DACs and other units with different opamps. I am a Sabre32 fan and have a couple DACs in PCs that use that chip. I also recently tested a VelvetSound AK DAC in an SMSL SU-1 against a Sabre32 ESS DAC in the SMSL PS200 Pro. For the system I was putting the DAC into, I preferred the SU-1 with the VelvetSound DAC. It was very subtle, but "better" to my ears in THAT system. Nothing else was changed in the input line other than the DAC itself - not volume, tone, or anything else, just the DAC.

I can't comment on $2000 DACs, but I would imagine there is a difference with those if compared to the $100 ones. Different might equate to better in someone elses system, but it might not too...

OP amps in themselves can have a very noticeable difference between them in how they sound and interact with a given processor. I built the CNC phono preamp that 5 or 6 different OP amps can be used in it. Some folks mix and match. I tried several different ones and settled on a couple OPA's. The difference between OP amps with BJT's or JFET's was noticeable. There is one other I haven't tried yet, but it's a SMD type and needs an adaptor. It has MOSFET's inside.
I agree various DACs with different processors and OP amps will sound different from each other. Whether it's that noticeable or not is going to depend on a person's ears/brain, along with what source, equipment, and speakers the DAC is connected to. Some equipment and speakers are more revealing than others. Some people have very revealing systems. I dought mine is one of them. I've built most of my own tube gear either from kit or scratch.
The line stage preamp in my main system has been my favorite for about 8 years now. It seems to get everything right without sounding harsh at all.
My favorite amp is a little Dynakit Dynaco ST-35 clone. It sounds very good and has some really nice output transformers, but I dought it can be considered really high end. I've still been able to tell the difference in sound between three CDPs and the SU-2 DAC I'm using now. All use different processors and OP amps. Between two of the CDPs neither one sounded better than the other really, just different. The third one sohnded best and it was from the 80's. The other two were much newer.

 

[drjohnnyfeva]

OP amps in themselves can have a very noticeable difference between them in how they sound and interact with a given processor. I built the CNC phono preamp that 5 or 6 different OP amps can be used in it. Some folks mix and match. I tried several different ones and settled on a couple OPA's. The difference between OP amps with BJT's or JFET's was noticeable. There is one other I haven't tried yet, but it's a SMD type and needs an adaptor. It has MOSFET's inside.
I agree various DACs with different processors and OP amps will sound different from each other. Whether it's that noticeable or not is going to depend on a person's ears/brain, along with what source, equipment, and speakers the DAC is connected to. Some equipment and speakers are more revealing than others. Some people have very revealing systems. I dought mine is one of them. I've built most of my own tube gear either from kit or scratch.
The line stage preamp in my main system has been my favorite for about 8 years now. It seems to get everything right without sounding harsh at all.
My favorite amp is a little Dynakit Dynaco ST-35 clone. It sounds very good and has some really nice output transformers, but I dought it can be considered really high end. I've still been able to tell the difference in sound between three CDPs and the SU-2 DAC I'm using now. All use different processors and OP amps. Between two of the CDPs neither one sounded better than the other really, just different. The third one sohnded best and it was from the 80's. The other two were much newer.

Exactly! There's no way to quantify an improvement over multiple systems.

Your setup sounds like it would sound great, but I have no reference to it. And in your system the Sabre32 chip might sound different than how that unit sounds in my flea-watt system. THIS is my point. Everyone builds a system with divers components based on what they've heard! There are differences in how we hear things as individuals and systems are built on those preferences. DACs are no different. It's a component in a system and you should listen and find the one that works best in what you've got.

Anyone who has rolled a tube, rolled an opamp, or swapped a filter knows that sounds change and you can hear it. (Unless you are hearing deficit and that's not what we're talking about. )

 

[Bushikan]

I’ve never measured the several awe-inspiring R2R tube DACs that I’ve heard from Lampizator; and I’ve never popped their hoods or engaged in any double-blind tests—including of the Lampizator my brother owns. Whatever. Maybe it’s fairy dust or some form of hypnosis or magic beans. Maybe there are no differences. All I *know* is that I prefer their secret sauce—the more the better.

 

[Lavane]

Exactly! There's no way to quantify an improvement over multiple systems.

Your setup sounds like it would sound great, but I have no reference to it. And in your system the Sabre32 chip might sound different than how that unit sounds in my flea-watt system. THIS is my point. Everyone builds a system with divers components based on what they've heard! There are differences in how we hear things as individuals and systems are built on those preferences. DACs are no different. It's a component in a system and you should listen and find the one that works best in what you've got.

Anyone who has rolled a tube, rolled an opamp, or swapped a filter knows that sounds change and you can hear it. (Unless you are hearing deficit and that's not what we're talking about. )

That sums it up great.
I have two stereo tube amps and a big pair of parallel push pull tube mono blocks in my main system. I also have several different pairs of speakers connected to an amp/speaker selector. One of the speaker pairs sounds great with the one stereo amp and mono blocks, but not so much with this other amp. So I have another pair that sounds great with that amp.
Even though the specs between the two pairs of speakers are very similar.
There is defenetly synergy between components.

 

[Bushikan]

Synergy, baby!

It’s also that each of us is very familiar with his or her own system and just might be better equipped to recognize when something sounds different in it—something that others might miss. Whether or not we are conscious of the fact, we know the sound of our own stereos probably pretty well—even if we can’t articulate just what, exactly, has changed. That’s one reason I’m a firm believer in changing out only one element/component at a time.

***
As an aside: When I was just out of high school, we had a high school aged foster girl living temporarily with us. My older brother, who was really into cars, happened to be visiting. We were all sitting in the living room when the girl’s date, a complete stranger, drove up. We could hear his car pull into the driveway.

When the guy came inside, my brother got up and went over to him and—without ever seeing his car—immediately told him its make and model and exactly what modifications he had made to the engine and exhaust. The guy was completely flabbergasted—and they talked for 20 minutes—not the greatest beginning to her date. (I felt sorry for the girl.)

 

[bhairavi]

This article may define the reason for the different positions people take.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/are-you-sharpener-or-leveler

There may be something to it, but if so I disagree with the author that people are not born that way - they decidedly are, it's as much (or more) a personality trait as it is a question of the acuity of your inbuilt sensorium. I am definitely a 'sharpener' by this terminology, and that goes for just about everything - food, sound, smell, and perhaps most so with anything visual. Appearance, contrast, shading - aesthetics, proportionality. I'm struggling to see how the specific preferences line up across the senses, though. I don't like noise although I love noisy music, I don't like high contrast in most designs and I don't like sharpness in music. I like very spicy food and food with lots of contrast - give me apple pie a la mode with piping hot pie and very cold ice cream!

 

[Oasis8]

There may be something to it, but if so I disagree with the author that people are not born that way - they decidedly are, it's as much (or more) a personality trait as it is a question of the acuity of your inbuilt sensorium. I am definitely a 'sharpener' by this terminology, and that goes for just about everything - food, sound, smell, and perhaps most so with anything visual. Appearance, contrast, shading - aesthetics, proportionality. I'm struggling to see how the specific preferences line up across the senses, though. I don't like noise although I love noisy music, I don't like high contrast in most designs and I don't like sharpness in music. I like very spicy food and food with lots of contrast - give me apple pie a la mode with piping hot pie and very cold ice cream!

I agree.