Do different vendor crossover caps really sound all that different?

[Fred DuBuron]

I would recommend putting the crossover outside the cabinet and adding alligator clips to each cap so you can quickly swap them back and forth.

my plan is to use wires soldered on to female "spring-loaded" pin sockets that are going to be routed outside the back of the test mule speakers. The whole affair out the back of the speakers will be shrink-wrapped This way I can slide the capacitor leads into the pin sockets with minimal effort. I plan to run each set up for 30-40 hours before I sit down and start to "listen".
I have a few test tracks in mind including this puppy.
The disk is called "Digital Domain: A Demonstration Soundtrack CD".
Look for disk item number: 9 60303-2
It is described as "Digital Domain: A Demonstration Soundtrack CD music that contains a single disc with 29 songs.
This disc is divided into 3 sections.
Sections 1 and 2 are DDD.
• Section 1 is sound effects (helicopters, ocean sounds, lions, and more),
• Section 2 is a series of test tones
• Section 3 is instrumental music
The disc was originally was released on Feb 15, 1983, on the Elektra label
It is out of print and is only in stereo... They can be found on eBay for under $7
If you dare chase down a copy of this disk (they are still out there and very reasonable).

The very first track is called "The Digital Domain" and is 7:24 minutes long.
It starts off by sucking the quietness out of the room and then wonderful sounds slowly float into the room.
~
I won't give it away, but be warned: "It will blow up any speakers that are not up to the task" or if you are careless with the volumn knob (SEE WARNING ON PICTURE #3).

 

[Ruben Acosta]

This weekend I found a single orphaned AR-28S for an astoundingly low price of $8.99 at a local Thrift Store.
I almost cried...
so I am eager to hear this critter sing... and hopefully, find it a twin sibling at some point
New surrounds are on order...

As far as the cross-over is concerned...

For my usual speaker reconditioning projects... I would usually use the Dayton 1% caps (marked in green) and have been happy with the overall sound on my other projects. I am curious as to how the caps vary from vendor to vendor and would like to see if they have any effect on softening the sound stage a tad.

Here are the options to land on the 8.0uF crossover cap using two wired in parallel ...
Which do you prefer? (AUDYN, DAYTON, JANTZEN,or SOLEN)
I do not want to spend more than $12.00 per speaker so for this exercise I am avoiding the big $$$ Caps

Try erseaudio caps they are less expensive and be a vast improvement over that dried up NP. In fact try using Linkwitz-Riley crossover.

 

[Nat]

Different isn't necessarily better, obsessing over an overwhelming number of options isn't relaxing, and I don't get the point of sticking an expensive cap in an inexpensive speaker - wouldn't it make more sense to buy a better speaker? Certainly I have heard the benefits of recapping, and spending a few bucks to improve a modest speaker is fun and rewarding. But buying pairs of multiples of fancy caps can get fearfully expensive very quickly.
There is no moral or aesthetic virtue in putting more money into an audio component - there may be sonic rewards, and they may be sufficient to justify the expense, but too often there is some sort of 'quest' aspect to audiophile's approaches to equipment. It's consumer goods, not the cure of souls. A sense of balance is helpful - when it's no longer fun, maybe it's too much.

 

[kevintomb]

Different isn't necessarily better, obsessing over an overwhelming number of options isn't relaxing, and I don't get the point of sticking an expensive cap in an inexpensive speaker - wouldn't it make more sense to buy a better speaker? Certainly I have heard the benefits of recapping, and spending a few bucks to improve a modest speaker is fun and rewarding. But buying pairs of multiples of fancy caps can get fearfully expensive very quickly.
There is no moral or aesthetic virtue in putting more money into an audio component - there may be sonic rewards, and they may be sufficient to justify the expense, but too often there is some sort of 'quest' aspect to audiophile's approaches to equipment. It's consumer goods, not the cure of souls. A sense of balance is helpful - when it's no longer fun, maybe it's too much.

I think where the problems start, the old "Perception is reality" thing.

If someone "thinks" it sounds better in their mind, many will believe that is also complete reality. So take a person, that strongly believes they WILL for sure hear an improvement, and many times, they "do hear it, in their mind", partially or fully based on, expecting TO hear better.

Caps, are fully in the category of "Debatable" improvements, or we would not even be discussing whether they do or not, make an improvement.

Meaning, there is no fully proven answer that is agreed upon. Some say, no difference, some a tiny difference and some claim a huge improvement.
Only by removing biases and expectations, can we arrive at a meaningful answer to whether they "Truly" make a difference OR a listener simply "thinks they hear an improvement" in reality.

 

[Fred DuBuron]

If you really like a set of speakers and feel comfortable with them... then fine... But there is always that thought that maybe, there is an alternative cap that "might" make the sound a little more alive... or create an enhanced sound stage. That urge to try it once... is not a bad thing if you know the caps you are investing in will end up being used 'somewhere" The 4.7mfd caps are a good building block for quite a few cross-overs, so I have no worries they will find homes somewhere.

 

[StimpyWan]

Recapping doesnt always have to be considered pseudo-science. It's easy enough to recap just one speaker, and compare it to the other stock speaker. Easy enough to then evaluate your capacitor purchases, to determine if the effort is worth the cost.

I always do A/B comparisons during a recap, and have yet to be disappointed with the change. Not a difficult thing to do. No need to over think it.

 

[Nat]

I'm not trying to get into reality versus perception. It is not even as if audio reproduction is reality - the whole thing is an illusion.
And I have recapped speakers, usually, but not always with some noticeable change, and often that change seems an improvement, at least initially. So I'm not against it, and I recognize that it can be a lot of fun.
But 38 bucks for a cap to put in a inexpensive speaker seems an odd choice to me.

 

[Fred DuBuron]

So I'm not against it, and I recognize that it can be a lot of fun.
But 38 bucks for a cap to put in an inexpensive speaker seems an odd choice to me.

Agreed...
BUT... If you are retired...not planning to take the money with you when you die... and still have reasonably good hearing... and REALLY ENJOY your music... then consider the $38 as the price of a concert ticket that keeps on giving a higher level of enjoyment.
...just saying.

 

[Andyman]

I replace old electrolytics with poly caps as I'm more concerned with the resistance the old caps have built up choking off tweeter output than curve shift due to capacitance drift. this is why sometimes speakers sound brighter as you have functionally removed the resistance of the old cap and turned up the volume back to what it should be. Sometimes there's a difference, sometimes there isn't.
I tend to favor Daytons, but Audyn has been getting good reviews. More expensive boutique caps have not resulted in proportional sonic results to my ringing ears, YMMV.

 

[DesertRatt]

Different isn't necessarily better, obsessing over an overwhelming number of options isn't relaxing, and I don't get the point of sticking an expensive cap in an inexpensive speaker - wouldn't it make more sense to buy a better speaker? Certainly I have heard the benefits of recapping, and spending a few bucks to improve a modest speaker is fun and rewarding. But buying pairs of multiples of fancy caps can get fearfully expensive very quickly.
There is no moral or aesthetic virtue in putting more money into an audio component - there may be sonic rewards, and they may be sufficient to justify the expense, but too often there is some sort of 'quest' aspect to audiophile's approaches to equipment. It's consumer goods, not the cure of souls. A sense of balance is helpful - when it's no longer fun, maybe it's too much.

I found this post quite interesting and wanted to thank you for posting it.

 

[Ruben Acosta]

I replace old electrolytics with poly caps as I'm more concerned with the resistance the old caps have built up choking off tweeter output than curve shift due to capacitance drift. this is why sometimes speakers sound brighter as you have functionally removed the resistance of the old cap and turned up the volume back to what it should be. Sometimes there's a difference, sometimes there isn't.
I tend to favor Daytons, but Audyn has been getting good reviews. More expensive boutique caps have not resulted in proportional sonic results to my ringing ears, YMMV.

I'm the same way about the replacing caps. I replaced mine originally in 1986. The 40 uF caps were replaced because they were NP electrolytic and I can now check capacitance and induction. Well those 34 year old caps were testing at 48 to 50 uF. I replaced them with Dayton films ($11.50 ea.) and they were more affordable than the Solens ($17 ea.) so I paid about $53 for them. They test 41.2 uF and so they are closer to what they're supposed to be. I wish I knew about ErseAudio a few months ago I could have ordered four 39 uF caps for $18 + shipping. How else do you learn? Oh yeah try checking your hearing sometime using a tone generator! What you say there Son?

 

[bimasta]

I've recapped using Mundorf EVO Oils, Dayton PMPC's, ClarityCap CSA's and ESA's, and Audyn Q4's. I have some Jantzen Standard-Z's to try next. So, I look forward to your results of your cap tests.

Seems to me that trying 6 different (and expensive) brands of poly caps to determine which sounds best in your speaker, is not a very economical way to do it — and it's not an expense I'd even consider — which leaves me relying on guesswork.

What about good, new electrolytics? Say, the Mundorf E-caps?

I'm always reading how 40-year old e'lytics suck and must be replaced.

But I never read about the sound of new electroyltics. Do they suck? Are poly caps VASTLY better (and if so, which brand)?

At my age I'm not worried that they may dry out in 40 years.

(And note: I only need 2 caps in each speaker, so cost is much less than other speakers, no matter which type of cap I use.)

 

[Nat]

Thank, DesertRatt. I meant to add to my post that I'm better at talking about proportion and moderation than I am at actually acting that way - I'm no exemplar of these virtues, alas.

And an interesting question, bimasta. I'd also like to know.

 

[Ruben Acosta]

Seems to me that trying 6 different (and expensive) brands of poly caps to determine which sounds best in your speaker, is not a very economical way to do it — and it's not an expense I'd even consider — which leaves me relying on guesswork.

What about good, new electrolytics? Say, the Mundorf E-caps?

I'm always reading how 40-year old e'lytics suck and must be replaced.

But I never read about the sound of new electroyltics. Do they suck? Are poly caps VASTLY better (and if so, which brand)?

At my age I'm not worried that they may dry out in 40 years.

(And note: I only need 2 caps in each speaker, so cost is much less than other speakers, no matter which type of cap I use.)

It's great that a new product such as the Mundorf E caps has finally come around. But they really do not have similar specs to fully compare. They also are more expensive than predominant NP and polar electrolytics. All those I saw online were limited to 50 volts and they were just as expensive as film caps. The main reason people see them in their speakers is that the manufacturers were cutting costs so they could increase profits. In some instances they used them even for the smaller caps for tweeter.
Once you start to upgrade or repair your own speaker you don't have those limitations of profit. So research your possible choices and make your own decisions. You don't have to buy 6 different brands or types and don't let any poll about best or most liked influence your selections.

 

[bimasta]

It's great that a new product such as the Mundorf E caps has finally come around. But they really do not have similar specs to fully compare.

I'm sorry I mentioned the Mundorf E's. Forget Mundorf. Let's limit it to the "regular" brands — because the issue I'm raising is not which E-cap is the best, but if new E-caps are as good as the $$$$ non-E designer brands.

But while we're at it, recommendations are welcome for Best E'Cap for crossover use.

 

[StimpyWan]

Seems to me that trying 6 different (and expensive) brands of poly caps to determine which sounds best in your speaker, is not a very economical way to do it — and it's not an expense I'd even consider — which leaves me relying on guesswork.

What about good, new electrolytics? Say, the Mundorf E-caps?

I'm always reading how 40-year old e'lytics suck and must be replaced.

But I never read about the sound of new electroyltics. Do they suck? Are poly caps VASTLY better (and if so, which brand)?

At my age I'm not worried that they may dry out in 40 years.

(And note: I only need 2 caps in each speaker, so cost is much less than other speakers, no matter which type of cap I use.)

You misunderstand. I didn't try "6 different (and expensive) brands of poly caps" in one pair of speakers. Those caps were used in multiple speakers, all Acoustic Research. So, my AR90, AR58S, AR92, and AR1-MS speakers were recapped at roughly the same time, but with different brands of caps, as a test bed for the caps. All those speakers use the same tweeters, and 3 use the same tweeters and dome midrange drivers, with similar paper coned woofers. That would allow easy comparisons, in order to judge which caps I liked best.! I needed to do it, and I wanted to do the recap in an educational way. A learning experience. Why not?

And yes, I've tried Mundorf E-Cap NPEs (and Bennic, and M.D.L.). I use them on large value woofer shunts, as they didn't sound as good as a poly, on tweeters or mids. But when I have to use an NPE as a series cap, I add a film bypass cap to it, for extra clarity.

Finally, my money, my choice. I'm not advocating everyone needs to use boutique caps. Just that they can offer something beneficial, if you want to try using them.

 

[bimasta]

And yes, I've tried Mundorf E-Cap NPEs (and Bennic, and M.D.L.). I use them on large value woofer shunts, as they didn't sound as good as a poly, on tweeters or mids. But when I have to use an NPE as a series cap, I add a film bypass cap to it, for extra clarity.

Let's see if I get it right this time... one can use a new e'lytic, then add a low-value film cap "for extra clarity" — that is, a film bypass cap lends its "superior SQ" to the e'lytic, which does the grunt-work of dividing frequencies?

Also, you list 6 brands of film caps. I recall an earlier post of yours in which you had some unkind things to say about Dayton Film Caps, and I've read posts by others that say Solen Caps (for example, and their sibling Axons) sound like crap. So there's a wide range of SQ (and opinion) among those 6 brands.

Would you say that ANY film cap is better (by the nature of their composition) than ANY electrolytic cap, in a crossover?

 

[StimpyWan]

Let's see if I get it right this time... one can use a new e'lytic, then add a low-value film cap "for extra clarity" — that is, a film bypass cap lends its "superior SQ" to the e'lytic, which does the grunt-work of dividing frequencies?

Yes, a NPE and a bypass cap form a cascaded circuit, where they will merge their sound qualities together. So, with an electrolytic, I'll add a 0.1uF Dayton Film & Foil cap, to improve the NPE.

Also, you list 6 brands of film caps. I recall an earlier post of yours in which you had some unkind things to say about Dayton Film Caps, and I've read posts by others that say Solen Caps (for example, and their sibling Axons) sound like crap. So there's a wide range of SQ (and opinion) among those 6 brands.

I like the Dayton 5% film caps. Evenly balanced and spacious. But, for my recap, they were very sibilant and spitty in the upper mids. I added a bypass cap, and that smoothed out the sibilance.

As to Solen and Axon, I've only used them in bass circuits, and can't comment on their high end response.

Would you say that ANY film cap is better (by the nature of their composition) than ANY electrolytic cap, in a crossover?

Probably. I think so. Though, if the speaker is already bright in nature, I'd be careful about which poly to use. Maybe a ClarityCap, since they're warmer in tone.

Of the caps I've tried, I like the Mundorf EVO Oil caps the best. Very transparent and open. They are so clean and clear. I use them when the speaker warrants their cost.

Though, I freely admit, my AR58S sounded very good stock. They used the Japanese manufactured Unicon electrolytic caps. Great sounding NPE's, that I wish were still available.

 

[bimasta]

@StimpyWan Thanks for the thorough and thoughtful answer; much to ponder.

You say you sometimes add a 0.1uf cap to improve the NPE. 0.1uf is obviously a small value.

1. A hypothetical question — what if I add a film cap, whose value is 10% of the NPE's value (ie, the NPE is 90% of what the xover requires).

Would this much larger percentage of film-cap bestow even more of its sonic goodness than the small film cap?

2. And while I'm testing your patience — did you run across a cap that you noted for its clarity and "warmth", or "feeling", or "soul"?

 

[StimpyWan]

@StimpyWan Thanks for the thorough and thoughtful answer; much to ponder.

Thanks, I think.

1. A hypothetical question — what if I add a film cap, whose value is 10% of the NPE's value (ie, the NPE is 90% of what the xover requires).

Would this much larger percentage of film-cap bestow even more of its sonic goodness than the small film cap?

I did that on my AR90s. The woofer circuit uses a 350uF cap. I used a 330uF E-Cap and a 20uF Axon poly for that one.

And the larger the bypass cap, the more it influences the sound of the 2 caps. But many recommend the bypass to be 1% of the main cap.

2. And while I'm testing your patience — did you run across a cap that you noted for its clarity and "warmth", or "feeling", or "soul"?

Of what I've tried, the ClarityCaps were the warmest in tone. Very spacious. A friend feels they are very quiet too, and add no noise or distortion. Tony Gee recommends combining brands of capacitors, to mix flavors. He even says ClarityCaps and Mundorfs mix well together. Warmth and clarity.

Humble Homemade HiFi