gizzyman47
Addicted Member
Usually only when listening at lower volumes on the vintage system.
ggregg
Super Member
Having sold Yamaha products for 20+ years, on and off over a 35 year period, I feel I understand how their circuit works. It depresses the midrange trying to emulate the Fletcher Munson curve, which is the low bass and high treble reduction in human hearing at low volumes. The way it reduces mid frequencies is quite a bit different than a traditional midrange control which works on typically higher frequencies than the variable loudness circuit and there is no boost. Flat is all the way up. Nearly any other variable loudness out there, is some type of a boost, not a cut. The way the Yamaha circuit works the best, is to leave it flat, turn up the amplifier as high as you normally would at a loud level, then turn it down with the loudness control. Most people who call Yamaha amplifiers "lifeless" at low volumes, have not followed this procedure. In the mid 1980's, Yamaha went from a 10 db to a 20 db cut in the circuit to give even more change at lower volume. That being said, I prefer the earlier 10 db circuit.
Having highly tuned ears and being a classical fan, you obviously know what you are doing. I'm not a classical fan so trying to recreate a live performance means little to me, plus my gear, while decent, is not in the ball park to compete. Like I said, I set my tone controls in my system(s) the way I want it, just as you do.
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david1111
Barba non facit philosophum
My gear hasn't had tone or loudness controls for quite a few years now. I can see though, how many people would prefer to have them available depending on the music or recordings they are listening to.
One of the reasons I prefer not to have them is that they are never on a remote, and I don't sit beside my gear.
It's like not having a subwoofer remote. I have to get up and go over to it to adjust the level or frequency, but it sounds totally different over by the sub or gear rack than it does by my chair. So I sit down again and say, sh**, that's not right yet, and I get up again.
If I don't bave the controls, it forces me to set up the room and the speakers and such, so that I have a slight compromise in the final sound production. I adjust speaker placement, room treatment, cables, sub level, and a special fabric cover I made for the tweeters, to soften them slightly, overall, for things like Pop music. And the violins still sound great, anyway.
No tone controls also makes for a more direct/clean signal path, but that is secondary for my setup.
One of the reasons I prefer not to have them is that they are never on a remote, and I don't sit beside my gear.
It's like not having a subwoofer remote. I have to get up and go over to it to adjust the level or frequency, but it sounds totally different over by the sub or gear rack than it does by my chair. So I sit down again and say, sh**, that's not right yet, and I get up again.
If I don't bave the controls, it forces me to set up the room and the speakers and such, so that I have a slight compromise in the final sound production. I adjust speaker placement, room treatment, cables, sub level, and a special fabric cover I made for the tweeters, to soften them slightly, overall, for things like Pop music. And the violins still sound great, anyway.
No tone controls also makes for a more direct/clean signal path, but that is secondary for my setup.
I'm no audiophile, but I have a Kenwood basic C-1 integrated amp. It has a loudness dial and subsonic filter, and I use both. The loudness, well, just makes my inexpensive system sound better at lower levels no mater how much I play with the audiocontrol eq. The one thing about these older systems, like stated above, that don't have remotes, you adjust at the rack, then go back to the couch, and it sounds so much different. It's a constant battle at times. My gf gave up on me, asked her too many times to spin the dials while sat back on the couch giving orders. Plus, she doesn't listen to hard rock like I do.
the more important imaging and soundstage are to your listening experience the less you'll employ this added circuitry in the signal path.
Don’t let these old guys fool you
Most of “us” are going to have age related hearing issues 
. I always see if someones age is in their profile when “they” give an opinion on how something sounds in a given freq range. 
Maybe 20-30 yrs ago
I agree with this 100%. I set the EQ that I use so that it sounds good at my listening levels. Not a whole bunch of contouor but just enough. And it sounds good at all volume levels as well that way. I don't like some predetermined EQ curve that some engineer provided with a magic button. It just does not sound good at all with the loudness button on.
I found that when listening at low volume and engaging the loudness, the DB level also goes up. So if I turn off the loudness and set the volume where the Loudness boosted it to, it sounds better that way. The loudness is just boosting more of what is not really there, regardless the theory and intent.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
The ARC SP-3 I used to have had a variable loudness control. Unlike many, I used it the way ARC said it should be used. Many who have gear with a variable loudness control either don't read the manual or ignore the manufacturers suggestions. Using one reminds me of back when computers were just becoming popular, many friends and neighbors asked me about buying a computer. My standard response was to say, "If the clock on your VCR is flashing 12 O'clock you don't need a computer". I rarely added the rest. "If you can't follow instructions well enough to set the clock on a VCR a computer is not for you". Of course a lot of that was pre Windows.
I don't know how finely tuned my ears are and I'm not necessarily trying to recreate the live experience. I know it's not possible. It's just that the closer I have gotten to making me not disappointed when listening to classical concerts at home, the better everything else sounds.
In the middle 70's when I bought my first linear equalizer I also bought the matching mic and LP with test tones. Even then, I used them to flatten my in room response as I do now with a DSP. A flatter in room response has always sounded better to me than setting an equalizer by ear. Once I've measured and set the equalize/DSP I never tweak them again unless the room or gear is changed. I'd rather listen to music than constantly tweak anything.
I haven't had tone controls or any loudness compensation since I switched from the SP3 to an SP-9. That was around 1983. Using a DSP, REW, a calibrated mic and a laptop to flatten in room response, has made every part of my listening experience better. This is especially so with classical and jazz. With rock/pop it's a crapshoot as so much is simply not well recorded.
The Yamaha HT receiver in my bedroom has tone controls and bass boost. I use neither. I did use the YPAO calibration to set levels and frequency response. Turning the volume up or down is all the tweaking I need to do.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Just about all loudness control switches work the way you describe. The problem with them is they're referenced to a 50% rotation of the volume control. This is where the problem lies. For example, a pair of horns may be "call the cops loud" at 10 O'clock while an acoustic suspension speaker may be just "waking up". Do you or anyone else think they both should receive the same amount of compensation at 10 O'clock?
Variable loudness controls are based on how loud you actually listen. With them you set the loudest you intend listening with the volume control. You then use the variable control to lower the volume and apply the proper equalization. I usually say boost. However some say the midrange is cut. No matter. The results are the same.
HTHMAN
Super Member
Makes sense and perhaps explains why all my speakers, except my JBL L-150s, are acoustic suspension.
Input signal amplitude will have more to do with the relative position of the volume control to output than speaker sensitivity in most cases. Most gear with on/off loudness also comes from a time when input signals came from LPs, tape decks, and FM that wasn't being over-driven, so it is quite possible that one could be at or near the halfway point on the volume, and yet not be stupid loud or driving the amp into clipping. Now, with a CD player or other hot source, and depending on the gain structure of the amp/receiver/combo in question, it's easy for one to be delivering full rated power with the volume control at 11 o'clock or less.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
It's not about full rated power. It's about how loud the music is playing.
Set the volume control at 10 O'clock on any amplifier/receiver and play "whatever" through a pair of CV's. Measure how loud the sound is. Switch to a pair of NLA's and measure the level again. No surprise. There is a large difference in the levels.
Most loudness switches are connected to a 50% loudness tap. They produce little to no boost at or above a 50% rotation of the volume control and progressively more as the volume is lowered. If 12 O'clock on the dial is your loudest listening level a switch type loudness control is perfect for you. IOW, there are only a limited number of speakers that make the best use of a switchable loudness control on an amplifier. It also has nothing to do with full rated power of the amplifier.
OTOH, a variable loudness control is referenced to how loud a given amplifier/speaker actually is in a room.
fill35u
Super Member
If that's how Yamaha did it, then they did it wrong. The equal loudness curves show that there is very little change in the ear's sensitivity to treble at different volumes. It's only the bass that requires compensation. Most manufacturers got this right most of the time...
Same difference, so long as the boost/cut is mitigated to flat at reference listening level. But kudos to Yamaha for allowing the user to set the levels to account for their own speakers and distance!
That's all well and good, but regardless of the speakers being used, you will have more range on the volume control with a less hot input signal, so as you get past 10 o'clock or so, the loudness is starting to fade off. When you get to 12 o'clock, it's off completely. But if you have a hot input signal, you'll never get to turn it up to 12 o'clock as your amp will already be going into clipping, regardless of which speakers you are using.