You really didn’t have to answer all of the questions. Sorry I put so many in there. It sounds like we don’t really disagree.
I am one of the last people to argue against objective measurement but the difference is there are measurable changes using loudness and tone controls. Personal preferences are completely subjective. They may be based on purely objective conditions, such as engaging the loudness circuit or adjusting the tone, but even that is a personal subjective decision. People press the loudness button because they like the sound.
For example: If there was a button that said “ quantum tunneling level” and was not really based on anything objective yet some claim to hear stunning improvements while others hear nothing. There needs to be some objective base to justify this adjustment. When there is nothing but the subjective and the result is not universal, it smells of bovine excrement.
No, we probably don't disagree that much - just a friendly debate.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
As usual someone reads something in my post which is not there. Nowhere in any post I've ever made on this site is any sort of judgement about the use of tone and loudness controls. Please re-read my original post.
What part of this quote did you not understand.
"FWIW: I don't care if people use tone controls and/or a loudness control. It's your gear and ears. Please yourself."
My questions are. Why do tone and loudness control users get so defensive they have to create conflict when there isn't any? Why does simply saying I don't use "whatever" make some hear condemnation? The same thing applies to linear equalizers. Someone says they used one in the past and don't any more. Saying that elicits multiple defensive responses from posters who seem to have read nothing that was posted.
The gist of my original post was that a variable loudness control is always better than a simple switch. If you get something else from that we have a communication problem.
sKiZo
Hates received: 92644 43.20°N 85.50°W
Yup ... that's where a DSP solution shines, as it's able to match any volume level you throw at it. My hardware loudness controls are now basically redundant and left out.
PS ... the ultimate analog loudness control ... the Boom Box is not adaptive, but very selective, and I did some tweaks some time back to make it even more so with excellent results.
It may well be.Sounds like a personal problem to me.
sKiZo
Hates received: 92644 43.20°N 85.50°W
Bingo ... Even if you end up with the exact acoustics of the recording studio, and can faithfully reproduce what the mixers and artists wants you to hear, it won't necessarily work for you. It's all about what pleases YOU, and screw the purists!
PS - remaster artists like Steven Wilson are making a fortune off doing the old classics RIGHT as opposed to right. And I'm sure a lot of folk will disagree with that, as it's not RIGHT for them. So tweak away!
Oh. Can't say I have to tweak much any more. I invested the time and effort over the years to fine tune the system and room, and most any decent source can sound fine without having to do anything but power it up, warm it up, sit back, and enjoy.
Yup ... only I go for more like 95db, but then I'm crazy and a prog head. Don't even mess with anything but switching from pentode to triode on the amps for jazz and such.
One other fun discovery with jRiver is that I was able to match the volume slider in the software to the system with an SPL meter, so a quick glance shows me exactly what peak values I'm listening to.
Last edited:
You're right Joe, i am sorry about that. I liked your first line and that is why I referred to it. Looking back, I can see where it looks like I was responding to you. My apologies.
Bill S
Thread Killer
I use it fairly often depending on the environment, source and material.
I know what my ears like and for moderate listening levels on most material, I like a boost in the bass and mids. I'll often cut treble a tad in those situations. My primary rig in spring- fall is in my 3 car garage which swallows up the bass so loudness helps me boost it at low to moderate volumes.
I also listen to a shitt ton of music on my deck in summer. Even with a sub out there, bass gets swallowed up so loudness helps there too. With only a 10" sub its on a lot.
In my home, my system is in a 15x20 room with 12" ceiling open to the rest of the first floor. At low to moderate levels, loudness is on. At high levels, nope. Depends on source tho. Some types of music and mixes are wayyyy overdriven on the bass so I cut it back to keep the stuff on the walls from falling off. There are no absolutes.
I know what my ears like and for moderate listening levels on most material, I like a boost in the bass and mids. I'll often cut treble a tad in those situations. My primary rig in spring- fall is in my 3 car garage which swallows up the bass so loudness helps me boost it at low to moderate volumes.
I also listen to a shitt ton of music on my deck in summer. Even with a sub out there, bass gets swallowed up so loudness helps there too. With only a 10" sub its on a lot.
In my home, my system is in a 15x20 room with 12" ceiling open to the rest of the first floor. At low to moderate levels, loudness is on. At high levels, nope. Depends on source tho. Some types of music and mixes are wayyyy overdriven on the bass so I cut it back to keep the stuff on the walls from falling off. There are no absolutes.
USA Soccer
Well-Known Member
My MX119 does not have loudness; neither does my Musical Fidelity M6si
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
For me, it is simple. Rarely. At extreme low volume and no other.
ggregg
Super Member
My current main set up, Hafler pre/power, doesn't have it and doesn't need it. I use it if I need it. Yamaha's variable loudness, in reality a variable mid cut, is quite useful. This subject always seems to be a hot button to some people. I just don't care. I adjust tone controls to where I like them. Pots, circuits, speakers, room, etc., can all make a difference on what is "flat". I've never got into that argument. I just set tone controls the way I want them. I don't care if it's "right" or "wrong".
Last edited:
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
The manufacturers call it a "variable loudness control". You can call it what you like. If you take a look at a graph of loudness control settings they look like the midrange is depressed. I'm inclined to go with what the manufacturers call them. In any case, the results are the same.
Having had and used a variable loudness control with high quality equipment I can say from experience that a variable loudness control is the best way to implement loudness compensation. Loudness control based on how loud one plays music make a lot more sense than a simple switch which is based solely on the position of the volume control.
Those of us who are classical fans and concert attenders have an actual reference to compare our systems with. That being live unamplified instruments. That's the reference I use. IME a flat(ter) in room response has always resulted in sound that's closer to what I hear at a concert. That has also always improved the sound of jazz/rock/pop recordings.
My reference is, The Philadelphia Orchestra at The Kimmel Center.
