Westy56
A symphony of paradox
Back when we sold new release Lp's for $5.29, 10" Maxell blanks were $16.95.
Everyone I knew chose to use cassettes to tape because of the cost of the R2R medium and machine.
Does Reel to Reel tape sound superior to vinyl?
- Thread starter twoengine
- Start date
Back when we sold new release Lp's for $5.29, 10" Maxell blanks were $16.95.
Everyone I knew chose to use cassettes to tape because of the cost of the R2R medium and machine.
kaplang
Works for me !
Yes. But it is to be considered. I just bought some Used Sony PR150s and the concensis that I could find on the internet before I did the buy was all 150s do not experience SSS. The ones I bought did and I am trying the Nu Finish procedure to try and save them. Yes, I know. The Nu Finish procedure is very controversial!
Any warning not to be used means not to be used!Kinda like buying a LOTTO Ticket,you could win but not much chance of it really
My two cents... There are good and bad examples of vinyl recordings and good and bad examples of tape offerings... factory that is. In my experience a decent TT.. say a dual 1229 or Thorens 160 with Shure V-15 III, for example, compared to a decent R to R deck, like a Teac 2300 or Tandberg 10x4... a good vinyl compared to a good factory reel to reel, the tape always sounded better in all ways except for tape hiss which, depending on the program, is often masked by the music... it's those soft passages on wide dynamic material that reveals the hiss. On the other hand, if you're playing at high levels with any amount of bass boost, turntables rumble and suffer from acoustic feedback while tape decks do not. I was in the retail sales environment of better consumer and pro sound, the service area, for a number of years during the late 70s to mid 90s and this was my experience. I had opportunity to 'play' with many examples of consumer and pro equipment and different sources. The best of all by a wide margin was third or fourth generation master tapes made available on occasion by reps interested in a good relationship with us and our interface with buyers. I attribute this wide margin to a sense of openness and acoustic space in the recording.. the breathing factor.. which I always thought was mainly due to the lack of post production compression, a complex and touchy application of signal processing required for LP production. We used a variety of reproducing equipment, TTs and decks, power amps were either SAE or Phase Linear and speakers were usually JBL L300s, our favorite.. large Infinities... a few others.. sometimes a combination of several at the same time.
Lance Lawson
New Member
While this thread is old it is worth updating. The short answer to whether RTR sounds better than vinyl is yes it does. Let's suppose we took a studio master and had it made into a vinyl record with all of the typical steps vinyl goes through. Then let's take that same master and make a typical RTR dub using industry standard procedures. At the end of the process the tape has had far less abuses performed on the each transfer that the vinyl process has put on it's material. That alone is enough to insure RTR will win. However the deck is way more stacked against vinyl as it relies on mechanical cutting stylus on a lacquer and then two or three incarnations of disks being plated in male and female stampers until the actual stamping disk is ready to press. Then once the record is played on a turntable there is yet another conversion where mechanical movement is translated back into an electrical audio signal. The tape has had one dub made from the master and that dub is creating the tape you'll run on your machine. And the entire process only requires the motion of tape being transported over electronic reading heads with no moving mass to sap energy from the audio signal.
There is also another factor to consider in tape's favor and that is desirable harmonic distortion. The stuff that sounds good. The very stuff that audiophiles say makes analogue so great. Even if you're starting with a digital master once it hits tape it too will have that warm and fuzzy harmonic distortion. This may or may not happen with vinyl. It is unknown to me whether there are desirable harmonic distortions inherent in vinyl playback systems such as stylus and cartridges. If not then the vinyl listener is left with the digital signature sans the harmonics but with vinyl's surface noise clicks and pops thrown into the mix.
I like vinyl but in every instence where I also own the digital version the digital sounds more present. And in ever instance where I've recorded the digital onto RTR tape the result has been outstanding with digital's clean detail and tape's warm harmonic distortion. Win win as far as I'm concerned. So yes indeed there are mega buck turntables that guys like Michael Fremmer run and they sound great. However I'll wager that on any given day my 40 year old TEAC running at 7.5ips will record and play back the same material from a suitable source and trump the mega buck TT. It's really not much of a contest. OTOH in some quarters the cassette is considered the tape format but cassette vs RTR is still no contest.
Yes there is chatter about new RTR's hitting the market soon but the one's mentioned in this thread seem dead in the water so the old standards are still the only game in town.
There is also another factor to consider in tape's favor and that is desirable harmonic distortion. The stuff that sounds good. The very stuff that audiophiles say makes analogue so great. Even if you're starting with a digital master once it hits tape it too will have that warm and fuzzy harmonic distortion. This may or may not happen with vinyl. It is unknown to me whether there are desirable harmonic distortions inherent in vinyl playback systems such as stylus and cartridges. If not then the vinyl listener is left with the digital signature sans the harmonics but with vinyl's surface noise clicks and pops thrown into the mix.
I like vinyl but in every instence where I also own the digital version the digital sounds more present. And in ever instance where I've recorded the digital onto RTR tape the result has been outstanding with digital's clean detail and tape's warm harmonic distortion. Win win as far as I'm concerned. So yes indeed there are mega buck turntables that guys like Michael Fremmer run and they sound great. However I'll wager that on any given day my 40 year old TEAC running at 7.5ips will record and play back the same material from a suitable source and trump the mega buck TT. It's really not much of a contest. OTOH in some quarters the cassette is considered the tape format but cassette vs RTR is still no contest.
Yes there is chatter about new RTR's hitting the market soon but the one's mentioned in this thread seem dead in the water so the old standards are still the only game in town.
pmdclassics
Active Member
I haven't had the good fortune of finding a good quality 7.5 isp Reel to Reel tape on Ebay. Tried from several different vendors, by the way the rock variety are very expensive. I did get a so so copy of Herb Alpert and I can tell back when this tape was new it must of sounded just like you were in the studio. Unfortunately, tape just doesn't hold up over time like a vinyl record does. Most of my over 2,000 LP collection plays DEAD quiet. There is a skill to cleaning and playing your records plus you must find the right stylus but its part of the hobby. I have no doubt that new out of the box tape probably has the edge over anything produced. Today vintage analog vinyl is King. As far as digital music goes it makes my ears bleed at med high volumes plus I go to bed with a "ring" in my ears.
smurfer77
Super Member
I'm not going to argue that r2r isn't laborious; it is. I have a similar feeling to you when I first got into r2r. Out of my first 20 or so tapes from ebay it was very 50/50 and really sad. However, I quickly learned that tapes from certain makers didn't hold up well, and/or weren't recorded well. For example you get to know that the RCA Victor tapes from the late 50s and early 60s are almost always hifi and almost always still in good shape unless abused. Now I'm up to about 400 r2r tapes and I'm about 80% for tapes without issues and only a few % that I think are really junk. I'm not going to say it's not a pain, but they odds get better when you know what to look for. And, you learn that late 50s and early 60s, contrary to common sense, typically is better odds than tapes from the 70s (not just (sss, which is a only 2-3 tapes out of my 400). Vinyl is cool too though. I enjoy both. I reckon my vinyl is about the same as r2r in that about 20% is either a bit noisy or dirty.
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Wade Kuzen
Active Member
I just ran into this older forum and thought I would chime in. Around 1995 I bought second hand for a great deal a Pioneer 707 seven inch quarter track deck in beautiful shape. I was feeding it Maxell UD 35-90 tapes and loved the sound. Had it for a couple of years, then sold my whole stereo system for an upgrade to higher end equipment. Gone was the Onkyo receiver, Polk speakers, Dual turntable, and Akai cassette deck. I replaced after saving a lot of under the table cash doing all sorts of odd jobs. First off I went separates. This system which I put together sometime around 1999 consisted of: Aragon 4004 MK2, Aragon 24K w/ips, Aragon 47K phono preamp, VPI Scout Turntable with Benz cart, Meridian 507 cd player, Onkyo Ta 2800 cassette deck, and in 2006 a pair of Magnepan MG 3.6s; then lastly I added a Rhythmic HP15 sub. Ran the system with a ton of expensive cables. I never thought I would go back to R2R. Never gave it a thought, UNTIL: a friend wanted to unload his deck and asked me to take it off his hands. FREE....YES!!!!!! With 12 tapes. Well, of course I couldn't let him down as he was going through a nasty divorce and was moving to a smaller place. The deck was cherry, and after having it checked out/serviced for around $300.00 I started using it. I STILL have this complete system as everything works perfectly... still. One day I will need to get some recapping done, but for now everything is as it should be. I bulk erased all of the Maxell UD tapes and started recording on my 'mint' AKAI GX-265D 7" deck at 7 1/2 ips, which resulted in some very, very nice sounding tapes. Didn't need noise reduction. I am one who only used NR on cassette decks. The Akai [frown upon the name or not] is a great deck, built like a tank and quarter track. The deck records/playbacks tapes as good as the vinyl rig I have. I used up the Maxell tapes, and made a decision based on economics [so far a great decision] to search online for USED Maxell UD 35-90 7inch tapes for sale. I examine every tape very closely and ask the sellers questions, and ultimately purchased from different sellers about 20 additional Maxell tapes which have all turned out to be perfect with good boxes as well. No sticky shed problems with these. My deck has been calibrated for them also. Very nice sound from a consumer based R2R deck. Therefore, I was 'enticed' back into an open reel deck when I least expected it. I think I'll keep it around this time. I made out rather well with R2R this time around!
I am retired now, and tend to pinch pennies except when the need comes to spend. I do not plan on upgrading as I am not into the bit with downloading/using my computer. I am old school and enjoy hands on with everything. I like a big system as I have the space for it along with 3 other vintage systems in various rooms throughout the house. I don't like the way most people do their music these days out of convenience. I still have my great record collection, started when I was in my teens. I still have all of my cassette tapes which I still periodically record for fun, a ton of dvds and blu rays. I still record cd and dvd. I even introduced myself into sacd 5.1 surround. Still have a lot of top notch vintage gear from the 90's. Only when I cannot afford to replace or repair things, will I ever consider of 'going small.' Not in my blood. I save a lot of money by investigating online. I feel no need to purchase new R2R tape at this time. As in EVERY system, especially open reel: PROPER MAINTENANCE on a regular basis is mandatory. I don't mind!!! W.K.
I am retired now, and tend to pinch pennies except when the need comes to spend. I do not plan on upgrading as I am not into the bit with downloading/using my computer. I am old school and enjoy hands on with everything. I like a big system as I have the space for it along with 3 other vintage systems in various rooms throughout the house. I don't like the way most people do their music these days out of convenience. I still have my great record collection, started when I was in my teens. I still have all of my cassette tapes which I still periodically record for fun, a ton of dvds and blu rays. I still record cd and dvd. I even introduced myself into sacd 5.1 surround. Still have a lot of top notch vintage gear from the 90's. Only when I cannot afford to replace or repair things, will I ever consider of 'going small.' Not in my blood. I save a lot of money by investigating online. I feel no need to purchase new R2R tape at this time. As in EVERY system, especially open reel: PROPER MAINTENANCE on a regular basis is mandatory. I don't mind!!! W.K.
Wade Kuzen
Active Member
It really depends.. sort of like saying which is better, Ford or Chevy. It depends.
when referring to open reel, it depends on which deck, what format the tape is, vs. which vinyl record, which turntable, cart and phono stage.
Reel to reel was usually the source for most vinyl records, if you could obtain a copy of that tape, then no doubt would be better than the record. But most cannot obtain them, so many compare the commercial releases of a given title, vinyl vs. commercial release on open reel tape. Then it depends again on which format the tape was. 4 track 3 3/4 ips? 4 track 7.5 ips, 1/2 track 7.5 ips or 1/2 track 15 ips?
Too many variables involved just to make a blanket statement.
Given the right equipment, and source material,Reel to Reel will always sound better.
However, to get true high quality sound you need to be working at 15 ips. 7.5 and 3.75 just will not do it justice.
There are guys out there using 15 ips two track 1/2 inch tape. That would be where to start with tape gear. 1/4 tape just will not equal half track.
The biggest disadvantage of two track is that it only plays in one direction. When the tape is played it has to be re-wound.
Some have talked about getting 1 inch two track machines running at 30 ips. 60 years ago that was the standard for master tapes.
The biggest problem with tape is the high frequency hiss (especially at lower speeds and narrower tracks).
Dolby (in its different variants) could help lower the high frequency hiss, but it takes VERY careful calibration to work properly.
Advent first introduced their dual process Dolby consumer machines I really loved them. I still have three in the closet.
Part of the appeal of tape is just "fiddling with the hardware" since it is much easier to just pop in a CD.
Thanks,
Jim
However, to get true high quality sound you need to be working at 15 ips. 7.5 and 3.75 just will not do it justice.
There are guys out there using 15 ips two track 1/2 inch tape. That would be where to start with tape gear. 1/4 tape just will not equal half track.
The biggest disadvantage of two track is that it only plays in one direction. When the tape is played it has to be re-wound.
Some have talked about getting 1 inch two track machines running at 30 ips. 60 years ago that was the standard for master tapes.
The biggest problem with tape is the high frequency hiss (especially at lower speeds and narrower tracks).
Dolby (in its different variants) could help lower the high frequency hiss, but it takes VERY careful calibration to work properly.
Advent first introduced their dual process Dolby consumer machines I really loved them. I still have three in the closet.
Part of the appeal of tape is just "fiddling with the hardware" since it is much easier to just pop in a CD.
Thanks,
Jim
One thing i forgot to mention is that tape will wear with use just like vinyl. That is why you have to clean the tape heads because the magnetic material will flake off. Also, some brands of R2R tape were bad about squealing (as the tape passed through the machine). There was an extensive discussion on one of the forums a few years back (but I forget which forum).
Thanks,
Jim
Thanks,
Jim
TapeForever
New Member
might I ask the question!!!! What was being played to drive the master cutter for ANY vinyl record?? It seems to me that it would be a tape. Either a 1/2" or a 1/4" Master tape at either 15 or 30 IPS. If I have this wrong then will someone please enlighten me.
Well, the above is generally correct However I have dozens of LP's that were not cut from a master tape. They were recorded direct to master disk.
My take: There ARE reel to reel tapes that are better recordings than LP, Barclay crocker generally come to my mind, and I love them. Carefully chosen recordings, A set of master duplicating tapes made from the original master recording, No high speed duplication process etc.
There are LP records that are also outstanding, Direct to disk recordings, or when carefully chosen masters were used and carefull pressing,
Then there are the 3 3/4 IPS r-r tapes duplicated at 64ips and the LP's from marginal master recordings, using regrind for the vinyl, extra thin disk, lot's of warps
Or the "Nail in the Coffin" for R-R tapes, the outstanding masters or production tapes made with the SSS tapes so they are basically no longer playable.
Well, the above is generally correct However I have dozens of LP's that were not cut from a master tape. They were recorded direct to master disk.
My take: There ARE reel to reel tapes that are better recordings than LP, Barclay crocker generally come to my mind, and I love them. Carefully chosen recordings, A set of master duplicating tapes made from the original master recording, No high speed duplication process etc.
There are LP records that are also outstanding, Direct to disk recordings, or when carefully chosen masters were used and carefull pressing,
Then there are the 3 3/4 IPS r-r tapes duplicated at 64ips and the LP's from marginal master recordings, using regrind for the vinyl, extra thin disk, lot's of warps
Or the "Nail in the Coffin" for R-R tapes, the outstanding masters or production tapes made with the SSS tapes so they are basically no longer playable.
No disagreement on your general comments but the casual reader should know these are actually advantages. Proper 2 track storage is "tails out", which means to place the reel to be played on the right or traditional take up reel side then rewind to the beginning to start playback. Play mode provides a more consistent pack of the tape onto the original reel. Lateral and pressure consistency is better for storage. One direction also means there's no possibility to hear crosstalk, usually reverse thumping bass that can bleed through if alignment is not perfect, from adjacent tracks.
I also find 7.5 IPS tape speed in 2 track format perfectly acceptable for most uses. You end up with the same playing time as 15 IPS 4 track stereo and don't need to mess with auto-reverse. Put the tape away when the program finishes.
Bone Yard
Super Member
Beautiful system Wade! I just do it for fun, Pioneer, TEAC, AKAI, even Sony made some killer mid-level units that look and sound great. Sure you have to clean them but in most cases it's pretty easy because the transport is fully exposed. I love hearing music while watching the rotating tape and sometimes adding additional components to make them sound different or even better.
Like I posted in another thread, most users were recording vinyl to R2R, if you get into a higher sonic field, there's master tapes available but I don't think they work on the machines most of us own or are familar with.
I'm a gadget guy, I won't be happy with one set up, I live in the mid-level world and swap equipment in and out all the time. I'd have a hard time parting with R2R although I have some Grundig Dictation Recorders from the 60's I wouldn't mind finding a new home for.
Like I posted in another thread, most users were recording vinyl to R2R, if you get into a higher sonic field, there's master tapes available but I don't think they work on the machines most of us own or are familar with.
I'm a gadget guy, I won't be happy with one set up, I live in the mid-level world and swap equipment in and out all the time. I'd have a hard time parting with R2R although I have some Grundig Dictation Recorders from the 60's I wouldn't mind finding a new home for.
When I get a record that sounds exceptional with a certain cart setup on my TT combined with specific tweaks on my phono stage I like to capture it on tape. Since these setups can take some time, and may be difficult to recreate, having the experience captured on tape can typically be a more reliable method to repeat the experience. With good tape, a pro deck calibrated for it and using 2 track at 15ips the recording sounds exactly the same as the vinyl setup to my ears.
