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Dog "Shock" collars

MuseChaser

MuseChaser

Super Member
I know opinions will be all over the map. Based on zero experience, here's mine...

I can't imagine shocking a dog, even minimally. Yes, I DO think that there are times when some intentionally measured "corrections" are appropriate (after all, pups aren't sat down and reasoned with by their canine mothers.. they're generally lightly nipped or "nosepunched" in the neck area if they're out of line), but for the most part I do my best to stick with positive reinforcement (mostly by voice and enjoyed touch... scratches behind the ear, pat on the chest.. differs by dog... and not above using treats although I'm cautious about making desired behaviors treat-dependent). My beef (again, based upon absolutely NO experience with them) with shock collars is that I don't understand how the dog can make the link between unwanted behavior disappointing the owner if the "correction"/shock comes from "the ether."

We've all seen dogs in yards with underground electric fences, running back and forth, barking like crazy, interpreting everything that walks by as a threat because every time it approaches the boundary, towards the perceived threat, it gets shocked...'AHHAA!!! I KNEW it was a threat!!!... I'll get it next time!"

OK.. those are my preconceived notions, aired in advance, and as I've already admitted they are based solely on personal conjecture and rumination.

Now... the reason for posting..

When we adopted our Kelpie at just under 7 months from a young couple with no previous dog experience who had purchased him from a breeder as their first dog ever (DANGER... DANGER WILL ROBINSON.. KELPIE NOT FOR YOU!!!!! DANGER!!!), he was a terror. The wife was scared to death of him and couldn't control him, and the husband worked all day and was away. The dog wasn't even remotely vicious.. just completely out of control. He spent the bulk of his life unsupervised in their backyard with an invisible fence and shock collar. When we picked him up to take him home after the prior initial meeting, even without his control collar on, I couldn't get him to cross the fence line to get him in the car... I had to carry him. He was screaming and shaking like a leaf.

The young couple WERE VERY nice people, and meant well.. just in over their heads. They sent home his wading pool, beds, toys, food, crate... and yes, the training collar.

That was two years ago, and he is a WONDERFUL dog now. The first few months were a bit of an adventure, but we've rescued three German Shepherds previously as well as several other dogs (including a coydog... THAT was an interesting 17.5 years!!! Great dog... but back to our story) and knew what we were getting into. EXTREMELY intelligent, and has the "want to please" gene to a greater extent than even our best trained GSD. Cuddly, sweet, energetic.. just an incredible dog....

EXCEPT...

He's now 2.7 years old, and his off-leash recall in the presence of any distraction (bird, squirrel, rabbit, deer, duck, goose, runner, bicyclist, neighbor, ...ANYTHING that can be herded... is still absolutely horrible. He's gotten away from me maybe four times over the two years we've had him, and he returns to the house much faster now (last time he was only gone a few minutes, rather than hours like the first, incredibly scary time), but still.. not a risk I want to take.

OK... I know... finally... the point...

The shock training collar and transmitter have been sitting in a desk drawer for two years, NEVER used by us. I'm at my wits end with this recall business... and I HAVE a lot of experience.. Just can't get there with this guy.... never really did with the coydog until he was in his mid-teens, either. They have a LOT of similarities, personality/temperament/intelligence-wise. The difference was that the coydog was really street-wise, and could take care of himself in pretty much ANY situation; bad traffic, aggressive dogs or people.... he was a force of nature. The Kelpie isn't... too nice, and not traffic-smart at all.

The Kelpie absolutely LOVES to run, and is incredibly athletic. Walking him for miles does nothing except tire me out a little and frustrate him 'cause my fast walk is way too slow for him. He's at his happiest chasing frisbees at top speed in the back acre, but I almost always leave a 40' training lead strapped to him that I can lunge for if he or I see something... umm.. more interesting than the frisbee. I usually throw the frisbee twice without any lead on at all, and he's great, but he's so smart that I can see him scanning the tree lines for something to herd even while he's tracking the frisbee and retrieving it. After two throws, he's more focused on his surroundings than the frisbee and I have to put the long lead back on as a safety.

Sooo... opinions and suggestions.... is it time to tamp down my innate hatred of these shock collars and try it as a safety/backup instead of the long lead? I DO love to see him run unfettered... and boy does he love it.

There IS a fenced dog park within ten miles of my house, and he loves to play with other dogs, but they don't usually love him; Kelpies have a really nasty, loud, sharp bark when they're excited, and they playfully "nosepunch," hard, which dogs tend to interpret as aggression.

Another part of this perplexing puzzle, and motivation to get Fred (the Kelpie) a bit more freedom, is that our 11 month Bernese now...umm.... overmatches him by a GREAT deal in close-quarter play, and the ability to out-maneuver and out-run him in large areas would be very much welcomed by Fred.

Soo... thoughts? opinions? experiences? confirmations of my preconceived biases? Personal epithets? Let'er rip....
 
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OBMG74 said:
As a long time dog owner, I'm wondering why a dog would want to come back to you after getting shocked?
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I agree with this, I don't believe the shock collar is the answer. People trained dogs long before shock collars existed, there's gotta be a way ......

With that said, I'd really like to commend MuseChaser for putting such effort and thought into trying to give this dog the best doggie life possible ! I truly wish you the best with Fred :)
 
Shominy said:
I will be curious to see who opposes a collar per se, but greenlights invisible fencing.
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Hi Dean, doesn't the invisible fence comprise the part of the system that signals the collar to shock the dog if he approaches the boundary? I guess what I'm asking is how would the invisible fence work without the collar?
 
init4fun said:
Hi Dean, doesn't the invisible fence comprise the part of the system that signals the collar to shock the dog if he approaches the boundary? I guess what I'm asking is how would the invisible fence work without the collar?
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It doesn't without the battery-operated collar.
Audible first, the electrical 'correction', as they term it.
 
A working dog (a shepherd dog) confined in a yard with an electric fence is a spring loaded and loaded for years.
It appears you did a good job to release this anxiety so let's assume you are dealing with a normal dog, without fears and restraints.

Recall is a difficult exercise, especially for dogs that have an instinct to check the surroundings. I've realized this with my belgian malinois - german shepherd mix dog.
The usual training method is to use positive reinforcement with food - recall in your back yard with no distractions and reward with food. Repeat increasing the distance and gradually combine treats with hugs and petting. Make the moment he comes back to you a reunion, a celebration. And it takes time.

What I have found - and that's a side effect - after starting agility courses with my dog is that a bond is formed between the dog and the handler. My dog responds much better to recall and being around with plenty of people and other dogs in group sessions has started to de-sensitize her to distractions.

All in all, I say that the answer is to spend more quality time with the dog.
 
SaSi said:
A working dog (a shepherd dog) confined in a yard with an electric fence is a spring loaded and loaded for years.
It appears you did a good job to release this anxiety so let's assume you are dealing with a normal dog, without fears and restraints.

Recall is a difficult exercise, especially for dogs that have an instinct to check the surroundings. I've realized this with my belgian malinois - german shepherd mix dog.
The usual training method is to use positive reinforcement with food - recall in your back yard with no distractions and reward with food. Repeat increasing the distance and gradually combine treats with hugs and petting. Make the moment he comes back to you a reunion, a celebration. And it takes time.

What I have found - and that's a side effect - after starting agility courses with my dog is that a bond is formed between the dog and the handler. My dog responds much better to recall and being around with plenty of people and other dogs in group sessions has started to de-sensitize her to distractions.

All in all, I say that the answer is to spend more quality time with the dog.
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All good points, and pretty much all already in place and been/being taken. Malinois, while great dogs, can sure be handful, too.. congrats on the good work with yours. I've done some beginning agility work (mostly jumps and weaves so far) over the past year but nothing structured on a daily basis (which it would obviously have to be for any real gains.. mostly, it's just for fun to keep his brain working and break things up a bit). I built a two-wheeled cart and purchased excellent purpose-built harnesses for both dogs (the Bernese was bred as a carting dog) and have trained both of them as draft dogs. Fred is amazing... took him literally three days. "Pull," "Left," "Right," "Stop," "Back," "Easy" (slow down).... he and I can parallel park the cart just by hand signals. He's incredible. The Bernese loves it now (he was a scared for a month or so... had to go real slow, step by step with him), but is still very much a work in progress. I guess the short version is that these dogs get a LOT of quality time.. my wife and are both retired from any routine day gig, and we work with them quite a bit. Yes, there is always more we can do, and yes your point is well taken.

I think the biggest issue we have is the part about "..in your back yard with no distractions." We live on a couple acres, and our "backyard" is unfenced, bordered with tree lines and a small stream/river. We routinely have all of the creatures I mentioned in the first post visit us pretty much daily.. although the joggers and cyclists are out in front of the house, of course.

I guess the answer is just to keep on keepin' on, only do more frequent, but short, forma recall sessions on the long lead, and continue working one or two quick off-leash sit-stay-come routines at each session. Hoping he'll get it. Thanks for the encouragement, all, and for the prod to do even more active work rather than just enjoying his companionship and "playing."
 
My friend sent his new dog to training classes. They used a shock collar to train him and make him obedient. As soon as my friend takes it off , the poor dog will not behave at all.

We got a new to us dog from the shelter. He was a runner . They told us “do not take his harness off, you’ll never get it back on” . They were right. A month later we hired a Dog whisperer to help us. He had the dog eating out his hand in a few minutes and trained US on how to get him to want to put his harness on !

I would hire a Dog Whisperer who can show you how to teach the dog to behave in all circumstances. It takes effort on your part and understanding as the what motivates your dog .

It does not take a shock collar , negative reinforcement, to have a dog who is obedient.
 
Shock collars are typically used here for Rattlesnake training. If the dog gets to close to the snake (defanged to my understanding), they get a bit of stimulation that makes them want to avoid the snake.
My neighbors on three sides of me have all done this with their dogs, which now alert them to the snakes presence.
 
init4fun said:
People trained dogs long before shock collars existed
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No data to back up my assumption that more people own dogs than when I was a kid (50 years ago). There's also more going on in people's lives so they don't have as much time to spend with the dog. There wasn't one working mom on my cul-de-sac and none of us spent all day on electronic games and phones.
So my guess training your dog has become a burden instead of a bonding adventure for many owners.
 
I am in no way wise in this, (only had a dog once, a German shepherd, because my dad wanted one), just have some questions/thoughts:

1) Train to the reward of a particular tug-toy instead of treats (as I have seen with police dogs)?
2) Work on immediate "sit/down" or "look at me" before trying to improve recall?

Regarding the shock collar, I see it as a step backward.
 
billyz said:
... A month later we hired a Dog whisperer to help us. He had the dog eating out his hand in a few minutes and trained US on how to get him to want to put his harness on !

I would hire a Dog Whisperer who can show you how to teach the dog to behave in all circumstances. It takes effort on your part and understanding as the what motivates your dog ...
.
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When you say a "Dog Whisperer," capitalized, are you speaking of some form of trainer certified by Cesar Milan? I'm familiar with his work, and find a lot of his advice and techniques sage, effective, humane, logical, and pretty much on point, but I'm not aware of any nationwide "branches" or trainers sanctioned by him. Do you mean, basically, just a good trainer in general?

This is tough to admit, but heck, we're all friends here.. mostly.... I'm almost 63 years old, active, and in very good shape. I've had dogs my entire life, worked with dogs of all kinds of temperaments, read all kinds of trainings books, tried lots of techniques (not just for a day or two.. I mean really tried them over time), and if there's one over-arching thing I've learned, it's that there isn't any single ONE right way to do anything. It's just like teaching kids... (and I've done a LOT of that, too)... every dog is different, and what works for one won't necessarily work for another. STILL, I know I have PLENTY to learn. It's just hard for me, given over 40 adult years of working with my dogs, to admit defeat and engage the services of someone who will be undoubtedly much younger than me. STUPID. I know. I'm the guy who can usually get someone ELSE'S dog to behave for them. I find it hard to accept that someone else would do a better job with my dog. Tough for this old dog forum member to admit... although I know in my heart that there's undoubtedly folks out there who could help.
 
I'm no dog expert by any stretch. My first dog was our current corgi who is truly a great creature, but also truly obstinate (like the rest of the females in my house).

Anyway, she's smart and knows many tricks. However, she doesn't work for free. If there's no food involved, there are no tricks. I have to believe a smart dog will deduce "no collar, no shock. party time".
 
My wife and I "rescued" a dalmatian. We were warned about his kill tendency with cats. He met our cats at his new home and the killer turned into a licker. This dog loved all people, even the postman, but he truly wanted to kill all dogs, unless introduced. In the first month of owning him, my wife was walking him in small town setting. Suddenly he saw a dog in a local car, parked on the side of the road. He flew off for the car and my wife who was attached strongly by the wrist leash, was tripped off her feet and dragged 150' to the car where the other dog was. My wife was thoroughly beaten and scarred. The people in the car were treated to a very scary introduction to our dog. We were trying to decide whether to give up on him. We did eventually decide to keep him.

I had a good long talk with my vet, who taught me much during our talk. He let me know that he had a shock collar, if I wanted to borrow it. He shared with me the use of a choke chain collar and how effective it can be. We never used the shock collar and the choke chain gave us all the upper hand that we needed. It was a good lesson to learn and our dalmatian lived for 9 more years and killed no dogs.
 
Shock collars are an excellent training tool. The amount of current is adjustable and usually very little is needed. A tickle might suffice. Anthropomorphisizing animals is counter productive. With our german shepherd simply clicking the transmitter without a shock quickly, after initial training, became enough to control unwanted behaviors. We haven't had to use it in years.
 
fredgarvin said:
Shock collars are an excellent training tool. The amount of current is adjustable and usually very little is needed. A tickle might suffice. Anthropomorphisizing animals is counter productive. With our german shepherd simply clicking the transmitter without a shock quickly, after initial training, became enough to control unwanted behaviors. We haven't had to use it in years.
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Are you suggesting dogs don't experience trauma? Or...is it that the trauma they experience is inconsequential to their well-being? ...truly curious...
 
We've been blessed with dogs who actually chose us to be their "masters". All were pound puppies (Lab-Shepard, Chow-Lab and Pit-Boxer). They weren't perfect but they always remained in close proximity to us, even when unleashed. The Chow was the protector of the bunch and we could literally trust that dog with our lives. We never needed a shock collar with any of them, but the Pit-Boxer (shown in my avatar) needed a prong collar to encourage her not to pull so hard during walks.
 
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