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Dog "Shock" collars

DeadRock said:
Are you suggesting dogs don't experience trauma? Or...is it that the trauma they experience is inconsequential to their well-being? ...truly curious...
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Are you saying a mild corrective shock is traumatizing? A harshly spoken word could be traumatizing to some dogs. Have you seen a dog correct another dog who was behaving badly? I’ve gotten traumatized just watching it.

My dog was raised in a homeless encampment then on the streets before getting hit by a car. He had ZERO socialization, and clearly lived in an environment where aggression equaled more resources (food, water, toys, attention). That did not work in our world. Two corrections with MILD current was all that was needed. After that the BEEP did the trick, then voice commands were all that were needed. The collar has been in the dog-stuff bin for years, and we have a loving, well-mannered, social dog.

Is this more traumatizing than a dozen fights and a thousand corrections?

BTW, I did try the collar on me before I used it on the dog (only fair, right? (My SO loved the idea)). At the setting I used, it was enough to correct the behavior, but was easily tolerated. It doesn’t need to be a cattle prod, and I’m a fan when used correctly and only when needed.
 
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And just to be clear, the collar was the mode of last resort, and was accompanied by non-contact correction methods as reinforcement. And plenty of positive reinforcement for good behavior.

Also, it’s amazing what food and treats and belly rubs every day, trail walks, grooming, and playing with toys will do for a dog’s psyche. He is one happy malamute chow chow dog.
 
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I have a Corgi also a herder. They are like very short stout ninjas. There is no time in public that she can be off leash. She loves everybody and she thinks everyone one should love her. Got a package one day and was lucky the UPS driver pulled in the drive way. Opened the door and Emily saw her opportunity. She shot through the opening and was climbing the stairs into the truck. UPS driver knew she was harmless and carried that 33lb squirmy sausage dog to me. She's also got loose a few times and will shoot across the street with no regard to cars which is terrifying. After a couple of minutes she let you "capture" her. She has been trained to stay and is almost always good but not all the time. Sometimes dogs are gonna be what THEY want to be regardless of training. As an example I was walking Emily past a K9 policeman's house as he was he was leaving for work. His service dog was not on a leash. He's dog immediately started to chase. I was picking her up and she slipped from her harness and ran with the service dog right behind not paying any attention to the handlers commands. If it can happen with a highly trained service dog it can happen with any dog.

I bought a shock/buzz collar. Emily knew as soon as it was on something wasn't kosher and was scared. Didn't have the heart to use it. She's smart enough I think she would have known who's finger was on the button. Wasn't worth it to me.
 
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@ Semanon...I appreciate your responses...what you describe sounds like retraining and "unlearning". Very difficult to achieve post-trauma.

"it’s amazing what food and treats and belly rubs every day, trail walks, grooming, and playing with toys will do for a dog’s psyche."

Truer words have never...wait a minute...those words have been written...you could substitute "dog" for just about any sentient being...including cows...

Cheers!
 
sanford12 said:
I have a Corgi also a herder. They are like very short stout ninjas. There is no time in public that she can be off leash.
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Interesting. There's a state forest near me that allows dogs to be off leash if they're controlled. Our corgi will stick with us as we walk. She might run ahead 25', or fall behind the same amount, but she'll then wait or catch up as needed. She can also be trusted to stay in the yard* even though it's not fenced. Ours is also friendly to strangers, but she'll bark if someone outside the family walks into the yard. I've come to the conclusion she likes to tell us when something is going on.

* we don't let her out alone, though we might be around the corner and she's not in line of sight.
 
A shock collar is one the worst f'ing things to do to man's best friend.

My ex got one for the boy springer. I tested it out, he didn't bark or anything. Except of the look in his eyes, it killed me. I tested it out on my arm, it was fricking painful. I threw that stupid **** out.

Dogs aren't stupid. People are to lazy to properly train them.
 
If you don't know how to train a dog, you likely don't know how to properly train with a shock collar. I prefer training with rewards (food and affection) rather than pain.

My old girl was a runner. She'd always come back. Usually drenched in mud and muck and who knows how many busy roads she crossed. She was kept on a leash. Although reckless, she lived to be almost 17 when we put her down last week.

My new pup that we've had for just over a year is a super loyal retriever mix and can go leashless. If I say "no," she will not run off. She fetches balls and plays with the Chuckit Brand "Flying Squirrel" (thanks @GChief for suggesting it), catching it out of the air. My point in contrasting the two dogs is that every dog is different and have certain aspects of their personality hard-wired. Both mutts went to training classes and if I had a particularly problematic pup, I'd have the dog trainer work one-on-one.
 
PabloX said:
Interesting. There's a state forest near me that allows dogs to be off leash if they're controlled. Our corgi will stick with us as we walk. She might run ahead 25', or fall behind the same amount, but she'll then wait or catch up as needed. She can also be trusted to stay in the yard* even though it's not fenced. Ours is also friendly to strangers, but she'll bark if someone outside the family walks into the yard. I've come to the conclusion she likes to tell us when something is going on.

* we don't let her out alone, though we might be around the corner and she's not in line of sight.
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Honestly I'd never take my dog to that forest with dogs off leash. Did you read the part about the policeman with his service dog off leash.

When I knew I was getting a dog I put up a privacy fence so I wouldn't have to worry.

A couple a street over has one of these. These are massive incredibly strong dogs. Walking the dog on the sidewalk. Come up to the house and the garage doors up as the women is exercising. She had that dog restrained with just one piece of paracord. My first thought was this isn't good and sure enough as soon as it saw my dog and ran towards us the cord didn't do anything but snap and her dog was on her before I could do anything and had picked her off the ground by her harness. If your dog is 25' feet away there's not a thing you can do if a dog like that decides to attack. We were lucky that day she got control of her dog.
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Worked with someone who trained German Shepherds and had done it for years. He was walking his own dogs(2) when one spotted a small dog in it's own yard. It broke loose and savaged the small dog while ignoring commands. He put the dog down the next day and rightfully so.


We had a windstorm awhile back and someone who has 7 dogs had their gate blown open and 3 large dogs were running free. Now nice individual dogs when they are running loose in a pack can get stupid. They came towards me and Emily started running towards then drawing back, no friendly wag or dog smile. Managed to chase then off.

Again walking Emily we're on the sidewalk. Man is riding a small 4 wheeler around his yard with his daughter while their large boxer ran loose. Boxer comes up and blocks the sidewalk. Man does nothing and gets ignorant when I tell him his dog should be on leash if he's not watchin it. Their dog had antagonized his neighbors so much and they took so much heat they finally moved thank goodness.

Big dogs and bad owners is a bad combination. Dogs can be unpredictable no matter what their owner thinks
 
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Shocks are what deter my neighbor's dog from charging at me and receiving a good old fashioned belt lashing. Would I use shocks to teach a dog to roll over or shake hands? You bet your sweet bippy.
 
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onepixel said:
I tested it out on my arm, it was fricking painful. I threw that stupid **** out.
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Just like audio: Don’t get cheap crap and you will be rewarded with better performance. Just like audio: there’s an attenuator knob. You don’t need to turn it up to 11. I certainly didn’t.
 
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Semanon said:
Just like audio: Don’t get cheap crap and you will be rewarded with better performance. Just like audio: there’s an attenuator knob. You don’t need to turn it up to 11. I certainly didn’t.
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Bullshit. It did have a level control. Put it on the lowest level and give it a try yourself.
 
So many things to respond to...
1. I used to take my coydog hiking in the Adirondak "High Peaks" area off leash all the time. Depending upon the dog, the rules, and the area, I see nothing wrong with it on principal. We were in very remote areas.

2. As I stated in my first post, I don't see anything inherently wrong with intentionally and dispassionately administered physical corrections. That's how pups learn from their canine parents. I see a LOT wrong with smacking a dog, shocking a dog, or worse, because you're angry. My biggest beef with shock collars is that I don't see how a dog can know WHY and WHO is shocking them. Yes, dogs are capable of that level of thought, and a lot more. I have ZERO doubt about that. They possess an intelligence (OK.. varies from breed to breed and dog to dog a great deal.. we had a very docile, relatively unintelligent GSD, an incredibly sweet, friendly-to-all-creatures-human-and-otherwise GSD of average GSD intelligence, and a relative genius GSD that strangers would definitely not have enjoyed without our OK) far beyond basic stimuli-response learning.

3. I am still, personally, very conflicted about certain breeds, especially as I am an admitted HUGE fan and rescuer of so many GSDs, which can of course be deadly. Still, they weren't bread to be fighters; they were bred to be intelligent, protective, loyal working dogs, and that they definitely are. Pit bulls, meaning Staffordshire Terriers and the newer American Bully primarily, were bred solely as unbeatable and tenacious fighters, period. They're bred to latch on and not let go until their foe is still. They have incredibly powerful jaws. YES, they can be very sweet dogs (as can all dog breeds), and one of my sons has one.. a very nice dog. Caucasion Ovcharka... another incredibly powerful (and much larger breed)... gorgeous dog... but with the same easily fatal capabilities. Yes, every dog can be a wonderful dog... but why not choose a dog without the capability to kill someone easily, if one has a choice? I guess that's the part I don't get. AND.. Yes, I'm a hypocrite. Any of my shepherds could have dispatched an intruder.. and our smallest, most recent one may actually have done so if we weren't present. Even our current Bernese Dog Mountain would be difficult to defend against if he felt threatened. As I said... I'm conflicted. I love, and I mean LOVE, big dogs. They have a soul, presence, and bond with their humans that, somehow, just can't be equaled by smaller breeds. Of course, the scarily almost-human intelligence (I put him at least on par with most three-year-old humans, maybe four-year-olds) of our Kelpie makes for a completely different type of bond/relationship, no less awe-inspiring (and even more, in many ways... just different).

4. This thread started out with lots of folks reaffirming my innate aversion to shock collars, which to be honest kind of surprised me. I expected some trainers, or folks who'd hired trainers, who used the collars to put me down almost immediately for being uninformed, and touting the value of the devices, safety, and benefits. Some folks did eventually chime in in favor of the devices, and I am still open to the possibility that they can be used effectively, humanely, and constructively.

5. The first thing I did when we brought home the shock collar was strap it to my bicep and administer the "correction" to myself. The previous owner had it set on "50"out of 100.. for a 28 pound dog. It was INCREDIBLY painful to this 150 pound human. It went into a kitchen drawer, immediately, never to be seen again until I started this thread over two years later. Still hasn't been used on the dog.

6. It won't be used on the dog. The collar is too small, and won't fit around his adult neck. Decision avoided.

7. We HAVE been doing even more structured walks and training the past day or two. Will update occasionally. If anyone sees Fred roaming about in the NE US, please return him to me... ;) He's chipped, has good tags on, and in all seriousness... I will continue to keep him safely tethered until such time as he increasingly earns his freedom.

Thanks to everyone for all the discussion.
 
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KeninDC said:
If you don't know how to train a dog, you likely don't know how to properly train with a shock collar. I prefer training with rewards (food and affection) rather than pain.

My old girl was a runner. She'd always come back. Usually drenched in mud and muck and who knows how many busy roads she crossed. She was kept on a leash. Although reckless, she lived to be almost 17 when we put her down last week.

My new pup that we've had for just over a year is a super loyal retriever mix and can go leashless. If I say "no," she will not run off. She fetches balls and plays with the Chuckit Brand "Flying Squirrel" (thanks @GChief for suggesting it), catching it out of the air. My point in contrasting the two dogs is that every dog is different and have certain aspects of their personality hard-wired. Both mutts went to training classes and if I had a particularly problematic pup, I'd have the dog trainer work one-on-one.
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Sorry to hear about your old girl.

My other dog was a runner too when she was a puppy. She would take off and come back covered in mud. Worse when she would came back covered in sticker burrs.

All dogs and breeds have different personalities and traits. They can all be trained more so than people.
 
onepixel said:
Bullshit. It did have a level control. Put it on the lowest level and give it a try yourself.
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Like I said, I did. Zero was zero. Didn't feel anything until about 9 out of 99.
MuseChaser said:
I don't see how a dog can know WHY and WHO is shocking them.
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That's the point. They don't need to know ANYTHING about who, only that the specific activity results in correction. In my case, the knowledge that the vibration and beep might result in mild and unexpected discomfort is all that matters. Dogs live in the moment.
 
A previous dog was a herding dog who, as a young dog, loved to 'heel' other dogs by biting their ankles when they ran too fast. One day while playing he heeled a doberman who immediately turned around and chomped him at the base of the tail. My herder screamed and ran under a bush and hid for 5 minutes. Everything was fine, but heeling was a thing of the past. That doberman did in 1 second what would have taken 6 months for a human to train out of him.

BTW, I think prong/pinch collars are equally painful and far more difficult to modulate. But they have their place.
 
grillebilly said:
So my guess training your dog has become a burden instead of a bonding adventure for many owners.
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My friend walks his dog every day and lets her hang out in his office during the workday.
He started off with a shock collar after taking a class on how to use it. I didn't like it until I heard how it was used.
 
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