Double Advent System Advice Needed

[raymeedc]

I'm thinking of hooking up my first ever double Advent system, & need some advice. I have a pair of Original Large Advents I'd like to hook up with a pair of New Large Advents. Is this a good idea? On paper, it seems that they would compliment each other, but I have no practical experience or knowledge of how this would actually work out. Has anyone here done this?
Secondly, could someone explain to me what the proper hookup procedure would be, or direct me to relevant threads or write-ups on such, as I seem to read differing opinions on this matter.
Thirdly, would a Kenwood KA-7100 Amp provide sufficient power for this setup? It's rated very conservatively, from what I've heard, at 60 watts per channel. If not, what kind of power would you recommend?

 

[MarkAnderson]

I used a 40-something WPC Sherwood receiver to drive stacked New Advents for a while and it did just fine. Further, I'm currently using a KA-8100 to drive my 4 ohm AR-3's and it does just fine. Your KA-7100 should have no trouble.

If these are the only speakers you intend to have in this system, just hook them to the A and B outputs and set the selector to A+B, which internally "wires" them in parallel.

I wouldn't worry about the speaker mismatch thing much. Ideally, you'd want 4 matching speakers, but I've stacked mismatched speakers (different brands, etc.) and gotten excellent results in many cases.

 

[archie2]

Presently I have double stacked Advents, 1 pair Original Large and 1 pair of New Large being driven by a 105 WPC Yamaha CR 2020. I find them a better combination by a slight edge than the Original Large/Original Large combination which I also can do.

 

[Ausjoe]

As to the first question they will play louder which gives a first impression of better (an old dealer trick) but creates room effects. I'll see if I can find one of member Zilch's post on the subject. Here are a couple of his thoughts:

What you see there is called "Combing." Because of the displacement, the drivers play out-of-phase at a specific frequency and multiples thereof, resulting in the reinforcements and cancellations shown in the black curve.

Reversing the phase of the tweeter (just as Clairtone tried with his stack) inverted the comb, clearly indicating phase as the source of the anomalies. (Blue)

You can calculate the total offset from the frequency and the speed of sound in air.

That's what happens when you stack, but across the entire frequency spectrum, the specific frequencies varying with the distance between drivers, and the differential distance between them and the listener.

The "teeth" of the comb are actually much higher. I applied 1/6 octave smoothing to the curves so that the pattern would be more apparent....
and:

Congratulations to both of you on successfully making this empirical determination and accurately assessing the results.

I've posted it several times here, now, with illustrative links in glorious color, but nobody apparently wants to get it.

It's AXIOMATIC: play multiple sources of the same program material in any given listening space, and they will interfere with each other. There's reinforcements and cancellations (nodes and nulls) throughout the frequency spectrum when you do that. That's the physics of sound propagation in action.

It's one of the primary functions of a crossover in a speaker to PREVENT the drivers from overlapping the frequencies they play and interfering with each other. Stacking defeats the engineer's design objective of providing a phase-coherent sound source.

HELLO, folks, stacking's a BAD idea, the only known benefit being they will play louder with the same distortion. It also makes a sonic mess of everything, and that's what you're hearing.

Answer: If louder's your objective, buy better, louder speakers and use THEM to accelerate your hearing loss....

[More is NOT better when it comes to speakers, nope.... ]

Now what MIGHT be done and hopefully we can get Zilch or someone to chime in is to put a lowpass on the bottom Advent, disconnect the crossover +tweeter and run a highpass on the top Advent. Say in the 80 to 125Hz range ? That's just a guess though for the sake of the discussion.

 

[wank]

As to the first question they will play louder which gives a first impression of better (an old dealer trick) but creates room effects. I'll see if I can find one of member Zilch's post on the subject. Here are a couple of his thoughts:

What you see there is called "Combing." Because of the displacement, the drivers play out-of-phase at a specific frequency and multiples thereof, resulting in the reinforcements and cancellations shown in the black curve.

Reversing the phase of the tweeter (just as Clairtone tried with his stack) inverted the comb, clearly indicating phase as the source of the anomalies. (Blue)

You can calculate the total offset from the frequency and the speed of sound in air.

That's what happens when you stack, but across the entire frequency spectrum, the specific frequencies varying with the distance between drivers, and the differential distance between them and the listener.

The "teeth" of the comb are actually much higher. I applied 1/6 octave smoothing to the curves so that the pattern would be more apparent....
and:

Congratulations to both of you on successfully making this empirical determination and accurately assessing the results.

I've posted it several times here, now, with illustrative links in glorious color, but nobody apparently wants to get it.

It's AXIOMATIC: play multiple sources of the same program material in any given listening space, and they will interfere with each other. There's reinforcements and cancellations (nodes and nulls) throughout the frequency spectrum when you do that. That's the physics of sound propagation in action.

It's one of the primary functions of a crossover in a speaker to PREVENT the drivers from overlapping the frequencies they play and interfering with each other. Stacking defeats the engineer's design objective of providing a phase-coherent sound source.

HELLO, folks, stacking's a BAD idea, the only known benefit being they will play louder with the same distortion. It also makes a sonic mess of everything, and that's what you're hearing.

Answer: If louder's your objective, buy better, louder speakers and use THEM to accelerate your hearing loss....

[More is NOT better when it comes to speakers, nope.... ]

Now what MIGHT be done and hopefully we can get Zilch or someone to chime in is to put a lowpass on the bottom Advent, disconnect the crossover +tweeter and run a highpass on the top Advent. Say in the 80 to 125Hz range ? That's just a guess though for the sake of the discussion.

So if you think you like what you hear, you're actually wrong. Scientifically, of course.

 

[Ausjoe]

Well I posted more in the spirit of discussion than to tell anyone what to like. Believe me I 'm not worried about what one does in regards to stacking nor do I believe member Zilch is. I do believe in my room getting speakers off the floor because of a sofa is helpful for example. That can be one effect of stacking. But of course you could do that from a speaker stand. I did ask if using the bottom speaker as a low frequency aid wouldn't work so I'm not entirely against the idea. I would suggest listening to your speakers with the lower disconnected and see if you can discern a difference in clarity. If not then enjoy!

 

[Zilch]

So if you think you like what you hear, you're actually wrong. Scientifically, of course.

We can pretend it's better, yes, if we like to listen to a swirling soundstage of phase interference, but it's no longer about the music.

I'm not opposed to anyone trying it, and would encourage everyone to do so, actually, but with an awareness of what is actually going on and attentiveness to the sonic consequences. Nobody's going to lose an eye.

Use stacking intelligently, like the pros do (well, most of them, : ) and there are significant benefits to be derived.

Fellas that like Advents and A-25s and such HAVE to stack them to get halfway decent dynamics.

Bottom line: Get better speakers.... :yes:

 

[Ausjoe]

Zilch, for all of those people who have two pair of speakers what do you think of the lowpass/highpass thought I mentioned earlier. I'm not personally using stacked speakers but it does seem a good way to make use of them other than the garage, ha! After all if you've already got them may as well play with them or sell them. You could biamp them and receive the benefits thereof at the same time.

 

[archie2]

The ears have it.

 

[Zilch]

Zilch, for all of those people who have two pair of speakers what do you think of the lowpass/highpass thought I mentioned earlier. I'm not personally using stacked speakers but it does seem a good way to make use of them other than the garage, ha! After all if you've already got them may as well play with them or sell them. You could biamp them and receive the benefits thereof at the same time.

Do an analysis of how the performance of the single pair might be enhanced via supplementation with elements of the second. Running a competent smaller pair as mid/high boxes stacked upon something larger with good bass capability is one workable approach.

Like acoustic suspension bass? $12 Presidians on top of inverted AR2s? Yup, and the connections are already set up for using AR2 as woofer only, as I recall. Then start reworking the Presidians as earlier discussed in another thread. Many small bookshelves are candidates for this approach, once you stop sending low bass to them.

As you suggest, biamping using an active crossover is a clean way to do that, and you don't necessarily have to disconnect anything in the lower pair, though I would probably do that once I found it worked and decided it was what I wanted. It can all be done passively, as well.

The same can work with identicals, for example, for enhanced bass response, or to make and MTM configuration, but there are rules for doing that. As soon as you get into the midrange and above, you're manipulating phase interference to achieve a specific performance objective, and considerable precision is required to make that happen successfully....

 

[Zilch]

The ears have it.

***Zilch konks Archie2 with a soft-dome tweeter and the correct-value inductor....***​

 

[wank]

You can pretend it's better, yes, if you like to listen to a swirling soundstage of phase interference, but it's no longer about the music.

Pretending should have nothing to do with it. It has been said over and over and over again on this forum - "They're your ears. If you like the way it sounds, that's all that matters." What is "better" should be decided by the listener.
I am very confident that no person here originally started listening to music as a means to the end of finding a perfectly flat response curve. That may be what the quest has become for some, and I have no quarrel with such a person if that's what makes him happy (in fact, I have no quarrel with anyone that doesn't harm my family).
Thus, I would argue that it absolutely is "about the music," rather than the response curve and phase interference graphs.

I'm not opposed to anyone trying it, and would encourage everyone to do so, actually, but with an awareness of what is actually going on and attentiveness to the sonic consequences. Nobody's going to lose an eye.

If you hook up some stacked speakers, and you like the way it sounds, then enjoy it. Just as if you like Acoustic Research, or Altecs, JBLs, planars, cones, etc, you have decided what you like to hear, and should enjoy it. It's like cheesecake. Some like cherries, some strawberries or blueberries, some like chocolate cheesecake, some like those turtle thingies. You're using a sense organ, and everyone uses sense organs individually, and is the sole arbiter of what pleases him or her.

Bottom line: Get better speakers.... :yes:

Thanks, I'll continue to enjoy my ARs, DQs, and Allisons. I like the way music sounds coming out of them.

Again, I'm not arguing with you, your data, or preferences. No one here has any business telling others what they can like, whether based on published reviews, scientific data, response curves, or market research. And no matter how one phrases it, telling a person he "is welcome to delude himself that it sounds good" or that "you can like that, if you like that kind of sound" or "it probably sounds good if you're tone deaf" is all passing judgment on how another person perceives his or her senses. So to the extent you are doing that, I disagree with you.

 

[Zilch]

If you hook up some stacked speakers, and you like the way it sounds, then enjoy it. Just as if you like Acoustic Research, or Altecs, JBLs, planars, cones, etc, you have decided what you like to hear, and should enjoy it. It's like cheesecake. Some like cherries, some strawberries or blueberries, some like chocolate cheesecake, some like those turtle thingies. You're using a sense organ, and everyone uses sense organs individually, and is the sole arbiter of what pleases him or her.

I have no issues with anyone's preferences. There are very successful speaker manufacturers whose stock and trade is phase interference.

There ARE, however, matters of fact associated with the choices we make, and certainly there is value in knowing, understanding, and discussing those facts in context.

Thus, I would argue that it absolutely is "about the music," rather than the response curve and phase interference graphs.

In which case is it not self-deceptive, if not outright disingenuous, to be advocating choices and practices which adulterate the music in its very name...?

 

[wank]

In which case is it not self-deceptive, if not outright disingenuous, to be advocating choices and practices which adulterate the music in its very name...?

Not sure what the last seven words there mean, but I'd assert that it CANNOT be self-deceptive or disingenuous to evaluate what one likes, and to seek and enjoy those qualities.

Is it disingenuous to advocate using tube amplification, which is measured to contribute more harmonic distortion, by orders of magnitude, than solid state amplification? Is is disingenuous to enjoy a speaker system with measurable response peaks in the frequency bands where hearing loss has diminished a person's ability to perceive those frequencies?

I suppose it comes down to what one is trying to accomplish with their audio equipment: produce a sound profile an individual enjoys, or produce something that meets some list of pre-approved measurement criteria? Either is a valid pursuit.

All that said, most of this discussion is irrelevant to the OP's question, of whether stacking LAs with NLAs is a bad idea. In response to that question, I'd say it's not that bad an idea (and I've done it) as the NLA could be most advantageously placed on the bottom since the woofer is placed higher on the baffle, keeping it farther from the floor. Unless you like it the other way, or stacked on their sides.

 

[jackfish]

By all means stack your original and new Large Advents. I'd suggest trying the originals on the bottom with the New Large Advents upside down on top of the originals. Make sure your amp is capable of handling 4 ohm loads and wire them in parallel. From what I've read the Kenwood KA-7100 should do just fine.

Here is my setup:

Comb Filtering shmiltering. I've listened to these Advents one pair at a time and in the stacked doubles and the stacked doubles win hands down.

http://www.moultonlabs.com/index.php/more/about_comb_filtering_phase_shift_and_polarity_reversal/

 

[Zilch]

I've listened to these Advents one pair at a time and in the stacked doubles and the stacked doubles win hands down.

Tell us, please, in what specific respects you perceive the doubles to be "better."

 

[MarkAnderson]

Kudos to you, Adam, for your contributions to this thread.

 

[archie2]

***Zilch konks Archie2 with a soft-dome tweeter and the correct-value inductor....***​

LOL:lmao::lmao:

BTW, Those modified Prisidians (the cheaper mod.) sound very very nice indeed coupled with an old no-name active sub woofer I found in my storage.

 

[archie2]

I've stacked Original Large/Original Large Advents, Original Large/New Large Advents, Original Large/ AR2a, New Large/AR2a, New Large/ EMI, New Large /3D Acoustics, Original Large/ A/D/S L520 Original Large/ Wharfedale W60, New Large/AR4x, New Large/ Energy ESM II, plus a couple of other hybreds I can't remember. All sounded better than a single pair to me except when there was a big discrepancy in efficiency between the speakers. Of course the volume did increase in all cases of doubling.
But for all that nicely perceived sound, my favorite listening speakers are a single pair of Spica TC60's on 40 pound cast iron stands specifically made for the TC 60, filled with sand, and driven by a Sansui 8080DB upstairs in my smallish listening room.

 

[Zilch]

I suppose it comes down to what one is trying to accomplish with their audio equipment: produce a sound profile an individual enjoys, or produce something that meets some list of pre-approved measurement criteria? Either is a valid pursuit.

The inherent presumption being that the two are mutually exclusive? Not hardly. Measurers also listen, and have the same purpose.... :yes:

BTW, Those modified Prisidians (the cheaper mod.) sound very very nice indeed coupled with an old no-name active sub woofer I found in my storage.

There MAY be an update to the Presidian thread next week.... :thmbsp: