Dual 504

[absolon]

We all have to trust our own experience, but again, you are basing your judgement on all Dual turntables on TT's in the $140 - $200 range. Once you hit the $400 - $600 range the quality is better. For instance, my 741 though housed in plastic has specs equivalent to the Sony X-7. My V15-III doesn't sound crappy on it, nor does the Ortofon X3-MC that came on it. Are there better tables at the price point? - you bet, but upper line Duals are nice machines.

 

[melofelo]

any pics of the higher range duals belt drive or otherwise ?...i'm a bit curious as i've only ever seen their low end stuff...not much of their high end appears in the uk hence my ignorance of the better stuff...

 

[absolon]

Here is the lineup with specs and prices:

http://dual-reference.com/tableinx.htm

Another with a collection of info on them:

http://hometown.aol.de/alflanger/

 

[melofelo]

thanks for the links :thmbsp: some of their older models do look nice...maybe they were better built than the flimsier stuff from the early 80's ? :scratch2:

 

[Sansui Louie]

We all have to trust our own experience, but again, you are basing your judgement on all Dual turntables on TT's in the $140 - $200 range. Once you hit the $400 - $600 range the quality is better.

Contrast that against Pioneer...or Technics.

Any turntable purchased from either of these mfg's in a comparable price range would blow the doors off of Dual.

Dual advertised incessantly back in the day. They made a sexy looking turntable. I remember lusting after them in the stereo rags, me with my crappy B-I-C 920 (now *there's* a piece of junk!), and later my BOTL Hitachi belt drive table. Looking back, the Hitachi was better than any of the Duals that I've had in my hands.

The arm on the 504 is a sexy little thing, unless you actually try to use it. If it had the heft and quality that it's appearance suggests in a photograph, they'd have something going. However, the whole Dual experience for me has been one that reminded me of being a kid again, and seeing the Saturday morning advertisements on TV for a particular toy...totally buying into the ad, really really wanting the toy, and then getting it and realizing that it's total crap. I gave Dual 4...!!!4!!! chances....crap.

Someone commented on 'why do I seek out advice and then go buy it anyway?'... well, the overall advice indicated pro's and con's, so I thought it would be worth my while to find out for myself. Well, I sure did. :thumbsdn:

 

[Sansui Louie]

Let's look at the Pioneer Database that Dr. Strangelove has compiled, and contrast that to the Dual website mentioned above.

According to the Dual website, the Model 504 sold in 1977-78 for $200 USD. It was a belt drive turntable.

For $200, you could have instead bought the following from Pioneer:

PL-512 ($100, a basic no frills manual belt drive tt)
PL-514 ($125, an auto return belt drive tt)
PL-516 ($150, a nice auto return belt drive tt with pitch control and strobe)
PL-518 ($175, a very nice direct drive tt with pitch control and strobe, that holds nearly it's value today on a popular auction site)

And for only $50 more than the Dual, one could buy the still desireable PL-530, a fully auto direct drive turntable that, IMO, may be the prettiest "working man's" TT ever made.

Now, if you will, do a search on Ebay history for what the above Pioneer models are selling for today...contrast that with the Dual 504.

It's pretty obvious. The Dual was overpriced shiite when it was new, and now you can't give the damned things away.

 

[melofelo]

the pioneer just before the 12d had an awesome looking tonearm and looked to be a real nice deck from what i remember

 

[absolon]

The Dual was overpriced shiite when it was new, and now you can't give the damned things away.

I've found in my local buying and selling that Dual sells faster and for a better price than Pioneer.

I've also found after actually using some of the higher end Dual models that they are quite nice.

Maybe you need "Pioneer" imprinted somewhere on your turntable in order to appreciate it's quality. :thmbsp:

 

[Scorpion8]

One thing to remember here: while I appreciate Sansui Louie's comments and in depth discussion, these comments are after, just his opinions. I happen to be a Dual fan from way back, and still play a CS-714Q. While I understand that even in their heyday, Duals were not TOTL like Thorens, they were universally regarded by every audio publication of the day as a step above the mass media TT like Pioneer. Most regarded Pioneers as better to your vinyl than a nail and tin can, but only by a hair. Dual TTs at the time were the next step up, but not meant to compete with the Linns and Regas and SME arms of the same period.

Everybody here is welcome to their opinion, but just keep in mind that it is opinion and not gospel fact.

 

[www.records]

I think anyone claiming a certain line of audio products as cheap junk after hearing a few of the many models available is just plain wrong. Especially when those that were used as a reference were not the best the manufacturer had to offer.

The ONLY Dual I ever owned was a 701. When I bought it, it didn't impress me with it's appearance, nor it's build quality. But I will say that when I hooked it up and got it dialed in, it was very enjoyable. As a matter of fact, it replaced my Pioneer (can't remember which model) from then on.

I am not saying that it was better than ALL Pioneer tables, because I have NEVER HEARD all of the models that Pioneer put on the market, but it did better the one I had.

Louie, what you are doing is like someone buying a cheap Sansui receiver from the 80's, listening to it and then proclaiming that ALL SANSUI receivers sound like crap. As far as Dual TT's go, I can say that a properly working 701 is a nice sounding table. But I can't claim that ALL Duals are that way. Get my drift? :thmbsp:

 

[Sansui Louie]

While I understand that even in their heyday, Duals were not TOTL like Thorens, they were universally regarded by every audio publication of the day as a step above the mass media TT like Pioneer. Most regarded Pioneers as better to your vinyl than a nail and tin can, but only by a hair. Dual TTs at the time were the next step up, but not meant to compete with the Linns and Regas and SME arms of the same period.

I absolutely agree with this statement 100%. This is why I gave Dual 4 chances. I'm 43 years old, I was a stereo GEEEEEEEK when I was a teen and pre-teen, and remember very well how Dual was regarded. In many circles, owning a turntable from a company that made receivers, speakers, amps and tape decks was viewed exactly as you describe. It is for this reason that I wanted to add a Dual to my collection, so that I could enjoy this wonderful German performance who's reputation I grew up and old with.

Trouble is, compared to my other tables, they haven't measured up -- not even close. Not even in the ballpark, but 3 blocks away from the parking lot, near a newspaper stand.

 

[Sansui Louie]

Maybe you need "Pioneer" imprinted somewhere on your turntable in order to appreciate it's quality. :thmbsp:

bwahahah!

Not at all. I just used the Pioneer line as an example as I'm familiar with them, and know that their 70's decks are universally regarded as 'pretty average mid-fi' tables.

I only own one Sansui table, a 2050C, and it's not terribly impressive, but I'd take it over the four Duals also. Out of the four, the 1019 was the best of the bunch, and it was not a good performer when it worked -- transplanting it's old Shure V15 type II cartridge into a Sanyo Plus Series Q-25 confirmed that...sounded like a totally different cart.

 

[Scorpion8]

I absolutely agree with this statement 100%. This is why I gave Dual 4 chances. I'm 43 years old, I was a stereo GEEEEEEEK when I was a teen and pre-teen, and remember very well how Dual was regarded. In many circles, owning a turntable from a company that made receivers, speakers, amps and tape decks was viewed exactly as you describe. It is for this reason that I wanted to add a Dual to my collection, so that I could enjoy this wonderful German performance who's reputation I grew up and old with.

Trouble is, compared to my other tables, they haven't measured up -- not even close. Not even in the ballpark, but 3 blocks away from the parking lot, near a newspaper stand.

That's why we all love this hobby. What I hear is not what you may hear, and there's something for everybody. I was also an audio geek from teens on thru college (am 46 now) until life's responsibilities took away the play money. Now, at this stage in life, I get to go back and find and acquire what I always wanted back then.

Am sorry your experience with Dual TT has not been positive. I've always been thrilled with mine. When properly balanced the tonearm is as sensitive as the fluttering of a butterflies wings. And she tracks like a dream with a decent pickup that is properly aligned. And I find the sound very presentable. Next time you feel the need and grab a Dual somewhere, and don't like it, send it my way.

 

[absolon]

I only own one Sansui table, a 2050C, and it's not terribly impressive, but I'd take it over the four Duals also.

After trying both, I picked the 741 over a 4050C.

I've never really seen the attraction some people find in the 10xx and 12xx series, but then again I've never owned one. I picked the 741 for a second TT because it really is a nice table and it is fully automatic (translation: safe for the wife to use). At 25 years old it is still fully functional with tight bearings and stable speed in spite of it's complex features. It sounds good with the ULM cart it was intended to carry and with most other mid to light weight carts I've used on it. I like my Unamco better, but I like the Dual better than most others I've come across.

I guess my point is that though unforunately your experience hasn't been good, it is a mistake to generalize to all Duals based on it. There are enough of us out there that know from experience that it isn't the case.

 

[Alexzander]

I don't know the condition of the turntables you bought. Maybe they weren't treated well before you purchased them.

25 years ago when I was in high school I bought a new Dual 506. It has played records everyday since then. The motor is, after all these years, almost silent. You can hear it if you put your ear about a half-inch from the plinth. By comparison I recently checked out a new Rega P3. I could hear it's motor from about 4 inches. This Dual turntable isn't perfect; the highs could be a little more defined and the lows firmer, but the way it reproduces strings and horns is wonderful.

If you ever decide to try another Dual I recommend you remove the platter and clean and oil the spindle. Check the belt it should be soft and flexible, not to snug and not to loose, and dull in sheen. If it is shiny it won’t work right. Align the cartridge and place the stylus in the groove. (You can get all crazy about play in the tonearm bearings if you want to. I checked mine and there is a little, but no more than that in the Thorens TP16 on a TD160 in the closet awaiting tweaking, and a bit more then that of an old Rega 200 a friend gave me.) If you do this it is going to sing.

 

[melofelo]

much as i loved my dual 505/2...unfortunately as the tonearm bearings began to develop play..it was the treble that began to suffer most noticably :sigh: ....exactly as described above...they became softer and less defined...
was great while it worked within spec though

 

[absolon]

melofelo, many TT's allow you to adjust the tonearm bearings

 

[aj_chicago]

Interesting comments about how opinions change.

The bottom line is this. The older Duals (1209, 1218, 1219, 1229, 701) had a TON of metal in their components vs. more plastic in the later ones. As time has passed, the plastic components have failed, but not so in the older ones.

For me? Dual's first direct drive 701 is the one (or in my case - 3).

While I agree with your opinion based on deep experience (and I own a couple 1219s, a 1229, a 1229Q, and a CS5000 semi-automatic) ... for $35!? For someone who doesn't want an "investment" table yet that's a bargain. I couldn't deal with semi-automatic and manually lifting and setting down that arm every $%&d time. But, I'm sure there are those who don't mind a bit. I'd love to have one for $35 just to play around with. Sorry that this is an old post, but it does still show up in a Dual CS505 search and there is no discussion on any good points or bad points. It's also light weight plastic, so if you break it you're only out $35. Had a 521. It played fine. Same plastic.

 

[bohhey]

Wow - here we are 19 years later. Still like the 701. Getting more and more parts 3-D printed. Just did the VTA cam on the 721. Not perfect, but getting there. Currently playing a 604. I like the simplicity, and the tonearm return at the end (unlike the 704). I never push the start/stop lever on tables so equipped.

 

[Thorsten R.]

The nice thing is the Duals are 19 years older also. And still doing well - very well. My 1019 is 60 now, with ADC 990 XE it is a nice machine. My sisters old 502 she wanted to put into garbage - now well serviced - has become my favourite machine. With ADC Astrion (mostly with XLM III NOS stylus) my disks are pure fun. And experiencing how a 604 with M20E (new original stylus) outplays a Rega P2 with 2M Blue is - well - interesting. The Rega was new, I have adjusted that thing meticutously.

My old 1229 is waiting for a complete rebuild. Well, winter is approaching.

Ok, I have learned to mend that stuff and done that for years for a living, but anyhow ...