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Dual idler drive vs belt drive

E

Elliott72

New Member
Hi all,
Thanks for the time. I'm in the market for a tt and I'm leaning towards a dual. I currently use a 1229, but I want to rebuild it and it's going to take some time being as I'm a Newby to turntable restoration.
So I have a few nearby options. All of them are in good working and cosmetic order, so I'm looking for opinions as to which way to go.
Option 1- 1245
Option 2- 1214
Option 3- 1219
Option 4- 504
Just to make things interesting there's a Elac miracord 750 iii
They range from $200-$300 Canadian dollars.
Cheers,
 
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Since you already have a fine Dual idler in the 1229, I'd suggest the Dual 504. It's belt driven, has a lighter platter than the 1229, and may give you a slightly different sound, which could be interesting.
 
Idler drives are notoriously noisy. I'd go with the belt drive too since it's quieter and you already have an idler drive. It will be interesting for you to compare the two turntables to see which one you like better.
 
For a newbie (hey - we ll started somewhere), I'd vote for the 1245. It does a lot of things right. Learning on a 1219 is not the way to go - way too many tricks of the trade in order to get it right.
 
OK! Though the 1219 is more complex, it is the best bet! There is an extensive post here on how to fix them up. Plus there are lots of owners here that know about them. The belt drive Dual turntables arent as heavy or well made as a 1219. I have a belt drive 601. While it plays OK, it's not as well made as my 1219 and 1229. My 1219 shown in my avatar <<<< was fixed up by me three years ago. Other than a loose connection on its headshell, it's been flawless! Great sounding, lives in my bedroom, and is my daily driver. Nothing special, cleaned out the old grease, pulled the motor apart, cleaned and oiled it. The stuerpimple that moves the arm was OK. The post here can help with that if needed. The cue on mine was good too. The arm drops slowly. The fix is a little tricky. Small parts, and in my case large hands. Did one this summer but I won't be doing that anytime soon.

Get the 1219. Even if you send it out, once done it will give you years of trouble free use. Once had a 1229, had it ten years after going through it. Dumb, I really like my 1219 and 1229. These are not for sale. The 601 lives in the shop. Still a study on belt drive Dual's. Good luck in your quest!

Eric
 
E72: Quality-wise a lot would speak for the 1219, but as you already have a 1229, these two might simply be too similar. Hence the 504 might actually be the best idea, as that's a mechanically pretty simple belt-drive design due to being single-play and auto-stop & -lift only (no auto-return) - but it's still a good turntable with a good tonearm and a good, pretty easily servicable motor (should already be the SM860, iirc) and still hardly any electronics at all. And equipped with a good cartridge/needle, a 504 will sound very nice. So, in case you'd like something that's comparatively easy to maintain, but still a good quality Dual model, a 504 would be a pretty good idea.


Poinzy: Careful there, as already mentioned/explained in the recent thread about the rumble specs of the SL12x0Mky, one has to be very careful with spec comparisons, not only in terms of measurement type, but also due to later refinements (like for example foil- vs. test-record-based), so that older results often look worse than they actually are. For example, the official specs for the 1245&1246 improved from > 42/63 dB to > 48/70 dB (DIN Rumpel-Fremd-/-Geräuschspannungsabstand), when Dual went from test-record- to foil-based measurement in 1979. And at least from the good models among the idler drives one could expect similar gains with the refined measurement methods. In fact, from a good and well maintained idler drive model you can expect that it's own rumble hardly adds anthing to the rumble of the records, just like you can from a good belt- or direct-drive model.


Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
jeffpaletz said:
Idler drives are notoriously noisy. I'd go with the belt drive too since it's quieter and you already have an idler drive. It will be interesting for you to compare the two turntables to see which one you like better.
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I read these type of quotes all over the internet on various audio forums. Them I found a 1219 on Craigslist and I had it serviced by NoTransistors.
My recently serviced Dual 1219 is absolutely silent. No doubt thanks to Seth.
 
Elliot72,

I've had the Dual 1229Q, 701, CS-506-1, and 1019. They all have their own sounds, and the belt drive is most likely going to be slightly laid back more imo. I liked having the 506 as it picked up the arm and shut off at the end, and no issues.

Having the 1229, why not get something different like the 504. The Elac was made to compete with Dual if I'm not mistaken.
 
Wow, so there's quite a bit of info for me to digest...as expected a lot of conflicting opinions, but that's what makes the world go around and also this site so interesting! I'll agree that it's a wise choice to go with something further away from my 1229. I think the Elac is out, and I'll definitely look hard at the 504. Now, I'll throw another question out there, in the $2-300 Canadian (cartridge included) what other tables should I consider? I prefer vintage but I'm open to anything that performs well for my budget I hate plasticky looking tables as I sure you all do too!
Thanks for all the replies and all the advice!
Cheers,
E
 
Bohhey, stereofisher and NoTransistors are resident Dual gurus, so I would take their advice or maybe reach out to them for more information. Good luck!
 
I'll throw another question out there, in the $2-300 Canadian (cartridge included) what other tables should I consider? I prefer vintage but I'm open to anything that performs well for my budget I hate plasticky looking tables as I sure you all do too!
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I think this is a great question and it is the same question I myself had a few years ago. However, it can be expensive to find out. I started my turntable collection with Duals and in this quest I purchased many different turntables to try out. Some of which I have kept but many others I have let go. There are some great vintage tables available out there. Here are some of my keeper favourites (others may disagree). Some of these purchases came in under your $300 limit, but not all. They are in no particular order: Ariston RD11, Systemdek IIX, AR EB101, AR XA, Connisseur BD-2A turntable, Technics SL-1100A, Luxman PD-277, Revolver, Dual 701, Dual 721, Dual 1219, Dual 503-3 and Dual 1009. Over the past few years, I have had numerous other tables including a beautiful looking Linn LP12 with Roksan Nima arm but the Ariston RD11 sounded just as good to me. Others that I have let go would be a Dual 1229, 1229Q, 1019, 704, QED RS232, Panta RPH-360 and countless Japanese belt drive and direct drive tables etc. Good luck in your search.
 
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Ether belt or idler the biggest part of the equation is the platter bearing. I have found the bad thing about rubber drives is the rubber hardening and glazing over time. That effects both belt and idler tires but belts are cheaper than idler tires and are more readily available. Does anyone know of a new model of TT that uses an idler drive? Hmmm....wonder why
 
I have repaired many turntables [mostly Dual and Thorens]. All sorts of drives, all sorts of platter bearings. With the drive system out of the picture, and the platter spun by hand at LP speed, unless the bearing is absolute poop, most rumble actually comes from the record. Yes, most records have their own rumble.
At higher speed, though, a bearing can create noise.
 
Elliott72 said:
I hate plasticky looking tables as I sure you all do too!
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Depends on how plasticky. To me there's plastic fantastic just as there is plastic-craptastic, and I don't really have a problem with the former. And in fact one can make pretty good deals in the realm of plastic-fantastic, if you know what you're buying. For example, the Dual CS620Q/2225Q and CS630Q/2235Q are pretty good tables, just like many of the plastic-plinthed, slimline Technics linear- and radial-trackers (e.g. SL-5, SL-Q200/300...) or the Philips DirectControl family models, just to name a few.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
I agree on the 1219, but since you own a Dual, why not try a direct drive Technics table? They are pretty bullet proof and very quiet. I have owned a couple idler Duals and they do require more upkeep than my Technics.
 
Elliott72 said:
Now, I'll throw another question out there, in the $2-300 Canadian (cartridge included) what other tables should I consider?
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Here's what I did - take it for what it's worth!

Having owned a Dual 1229 for several years, I opted for a newer table that was as different as it could be from the Dual. That meant a lightweight, manual, belt drive table. I picked up a used Rega, but you could also go for U-Turn, Pro-Ject, or MMF with similar design features. And I actually ran the Dual side by side with the newer table and for a short while with the same cartridge on both.

The newer table had more detail than the Dual, but the Dual did things with classic rock records that made it more fun (less analytical) than the new table.

In the end, I sold them both and bought a heavy suspended table with a modern tonearm and think I've got the best of both worlds now.
 
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