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Dual idler drive vs belt drive

Geez, I'm getting confused, seem to be wavering back and forth. The 504 sold so that's out, the 1219 seems to be back to front runner...thanks to the resident dual gurus. It's on the cheaper side to boot, $200.00 and comes with a good shure m95ed. Seems like a good pkg. now I found something completely different on which I would like advice. There's a pioneer pl518x. It's been gone through by a Vancouver tech and is in excellent condition. It's also selling for 200.00 I'm waiting to hear on cartridge type. Any thoughts?
Once again folks, all these replies are much appreciated!
 
Speaking of platter bearings, someone just brought in a Dual 510. It is a simple belt-drive with eight-pole asynchronous motor [not synchronous]. End-of-record arm lift/shut-off
Anyway, the platter bearing is a chassis-mounted plastic sleeve that is the receiver for a polished dowel that is moulded into the platter.
Sort of looks like the set-up of a CS-5000. The plastic sleeve is so flimsy that if you gently push down on the edge of the platter, it will move downward. Not a recommended turntable.
 
jeffpaletz said:
Idler drives are notoriously noisy. I'd go with the belt drive too since it's quieter and you already have an idler drive. It will be interesting for you to compare the two turntables to see which one you like better.
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If you replace or refinish the idler, they can be very quiet. My 1219 and 1229 are both dead quiet. It did take finding good wheels for them. Remember the rubber may have a flat spot and is over 40 years old.
 
Seth: That's odd - the 510 should usually sport the SM840. And I wonder, why the bearing would noticably give in...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
If I feel that it is a waste of money to fix, I will tell the customer. That bearing really takes the cake [American expression].
 
Idler drives are a superior table.

The Miracord 750 can be nice but you will need a better tonearm and a high mass plinth.
Even better find an Elac Miracord 40A for about $150 CDN.

In the famous "Home Despot II" thread on Audiogon this is what Jean Nantais had to say after tweaking a lowly Miracord 40A.

The reference decks referred to included a Garrard 301 and the now mighty Lenco.

01-15-07: Johnnantais
I've finished and tested the lovely Elac Miracord 40A record-changer record player, and the sound was quite simply stunning: incredible dynamics, PRaT, bass, very good detail, losing out only on subtleties like imaging when compared with my reference decks.

Art
 
bohhey said:
The metal sleeve in that plastic housing is frequently cracked in half horizontally....
Click to expand...

Yup, those sintered bronze sleeves are somewhat sensitive, but will usually rather not shatter, if not mistreated.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Elliott72 said:
Geez, I'm getting confused, seem to be wavering back and forth. ...now I found something completely different on which I would like advice. There's a pioneer pl518x. It's been gone through by a Vancouver tech and is in excellent condition. It's also selling for 200.00 I'm waiting to hear on cartridge type. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Wow, everyone so caught up in the idler vs belt discussion I think your Q got missed.

I am by no means an expert on the 518 but I think this could be an excellent choice, particularly if it's been checked out by a pro. A Japanese dd would prob be my first choice since you've already got the mechanical idler thing in the Dual.
Search around here a little, you'll find enthusiastic owners, often choosing it over more 'prestigious' tables.
I paid $50US for mine and it needs some real attention before it'll be playable, let alone attractive enough for the living room. Bonus, the X is handsome, not covered in that sad metallic vinyl like most 518s.
 
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PL-518s are good DD decks. Many that I've seen have some pitch fluctuation and people suspect the pitch pot when in my experience the fault was in the motor trimpots. If it's jumpy at all, clean those and you should be golden.
 
Don't forget Dual's direct drives. I have a 721 currently sitting in my living room, it was a cheap thrift store rescue. Thoroughly decent TT.
 
I think idler drive table can go to whole other level with better plinth
I wonder how Dual will sound if mount in heavy mass base like Thorens 124 Garrard 301 401 guys do?
JJ
 
Elliott72 said:
Geez, I'm getting confused, seem to be wavering back and forth. The 504 sold so that's out, the 1219 seems to be back to front runner...thanks to the resident dual gurus. It's on the cheaper side to boot, $200.00 and comes with a good shure m95ed. Seems like a good pkg. now I found something completely different on which I would like advice. There's a pioneer pl518x. It's been gone through by a Vancouver tech and is in excellent condition. It's also selling for 200.00 I'm waiting to hear on cartridge type. Any thoughts?
Once again folks, all these replies are much appreciated!
Click to expand...


Several come to mind with the 518 Shure are a good chice, but I prefer the Stanton and Pickerings as the Pioneer can deliver a solid performance and won't buck too much if you run the more serious recordings, like some of the Tel-Arc stuff, reissues of hevay Rock with extended bass lines or the gambit of the rest of the genre available.

I have heard those TT with Grados and Ortofon carts as well shure and depending on your personal tastes would work out too. To me the 681EEE were the carts usually installed or the Shure V-15 series. Most of the major stores at the time pushed these brands due to the supply and cost advantages to the store and onto the buyer.

Cheers
Hermit
 
I'm not understanding all of the recommendations to buy a 1219 when he has a 1229. They are mechanically virtually identical. I have rebuilt many of both models and I can't see a basis for claiming one is better than the other. :dunno:
 
Dneprrider said:
I think this is a great question and it is the same question I myself had a few years ago. However, it can be expensive to find out. I started my turntable collection with Duals and in this quest I purchased many different turntables to try out. Some of which I have kept but many others I have let go. There are some great vintage tables available out there. Here are some of my keeper favourites (others may disagree). Some of these purchases came in under your $300 limit, but not all. They are in no particular order: Ariston RD11, Systemdek IIX, AR EB101, AR XA, Connisseur BD-2A turntable, Technics SL-1100A, Luxman PD-277, Revolver, Dual 701, Dual 721, Dual 1219, Dual 503-3 and Dual 1009. Over the past few years, I have had numerous other tables including a beautiful looking Linn LP12 with Roksan Nima arm but the Ariston RD11 sounded just as good to me. Others that I have let go would be a Dual 1229, 1229Q, 1019, 704, QED RS232, Panta RPH-360 and countless Japanese belt drive and direct drive tables etc. Good luck in your search.
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Wow, some of those names I haven't thought of in years! What did you think of your Panta 360 ?
 
My first brand new turntable was a Dual 1015 in 1968. Then switched to a belt drive Pioneer PL-12D in 1973 because idler drive tables were "bad". Followed in 1978 by a direct drive Aiwa AP2200 and was where I stayed until 2005 or so.

A need for 78 RPM arose, so another Dual crossed my path - a 1010. Found it at auction and there began the compulsion to obtain more and more old turntables.

There was an older Rega/SME combo and a Kenwood "Rock" both belt drives, an assortment of Dual belt & idler drives as well as a direct drive 701, multiple Elac's, some Garrard Zero 100's and a Pioneer direct drive PL-630. Plus a smattering of other late 70's Japanese offerings.

Over a few years I disposed of (sold/traded) all of them except these and they're idler drives.

Two Dual 1009's (first generation)
A Garrard Zero 100
An Elac 10, 50H and 750 II
BSR McDonald 810

I also kept the direct drive Pioneer PL-630.

Excluding the latter (which sees little use) I've gone 360 degrees. Started with idlers - ended with idlers.

In the works is a Thorens TD124 II which shall be my last turntable purchase. And it's an idler. Or at least the secondary drive is an idler. This one will not depose the others but be used in conjunction with them.

There is no real point in my posting this except to say that maybe, in very general terms, idler driven turntables have become in vogue - enjoying a renaissance so to speak.

Personally, I just like older turntable which in my case, happen to be idlers.
 
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I'll take a belt driven Empire or Thorens anyway of the week over the noisey Duals. Their tone arms are pretty crude, too.
 
I like them all! My current keeper tables are a stock Thorens TD-160, Yamaha PX3, Sony X-600, a B&O 4002, and a Dual 1019.

I’ve had and enjoyed;

Many Duals Including 1219, 1216, 1218, 1209, 1009, 621, 505 and variants. My favourites were the 1019 and the 621,
Hitachi direct drives,
Technics direct drives but not with ULM
Philips belt drives
B&O
Kenwood rocks
Optonica “granite” direct drive
Thorens TD-160 and 165

I seem to enjoy the sound of heavier tables. I love the PRAT in the dual 1019! I just had one out of its plinth and that beast is heavy!
 
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