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Dual idler drive vs belt drive

jeffpaletz said:
Idler drives are notoriously noisy. I'd go with the belt drive too since it's quieter and you already have an idler drive. It will be interesting for you to compare the two turntables to see which one you like better.
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A Dual idler drive in proper working order, maintained and adjusted correctly is very quiet. And is not rumbly. Dual's best are idler and early direct drive.
 
twiiii said:
I'll take a belt driven Empire or Thorens anyway of the week over the noisey Duals. Their tone arms are pretty crude, too.
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I like Thorens and Empire a lot. And I'll take a late model Russco Studio-Pro belt-idler drive over any TD 124 all day long. And prefer Hysteresis-Synchronous motors over lesser. In idler changers, the ELAC-Miracord 50H or 770 is king.
 
I had to read all pages so as not to repeat but why did t anyone explain how the Dual type numbers work? A 1019 has a 10" platter, a 1219 has a 12" platter that has inherently more inertial rotational momentum.
The 1009 was the first of a new breed, then came the 1019. The 1229 is newer than the 1219 but basically the same model.
The last number means the higher the better, heavier and more features. So xxx5 is a trimmed version and the xxx9 is a top model.
10xx or 12xx is platter size
xx1x to xx4x is evolution of same model
xxx4 to xxx9 is quality advancement

I only have 1 1219 that I still have to fix but it is a really solid, well made table. The same that all DGG technicians had at home (according to pr). It was the 'best on the market' then. I think it's pretty good. Still. The arm/headshell is very light and nifty with the sled and vta adjustment. But that's something I don't like. An arm should be of 1 piece like a Rega. Arms give modern TT's their head start on those great vintage models. The headshell sled just allows to much play.
My first 'table was a 505-II belt drive. Great at the time but really the aftermath of what once was the great market leader Dual. The lightweight belt drives were really the beginning of the end.

And as for prices... while Thorens can be great (124 etc) they are often vastly overpriced now. Garrard 301 ditto. Arms are non existent or erm... Crap.
Lenco L75 and 78 are also great with an arm with some issues that can be fixed. But prices are creeping up.
Ive bought some Lenco B55 etc that have a lighter, forged steel platter that is supposedly inferior but boy, can they sing! No drooping arm, no finicky anti-skating weight. Just clean and put on a decent mat.

Then I bought some Garrard SP25, then I understood where the aversion towards idler drives comes from. Ring ball bearing platter does rumble much, arm is heavy and not adjustable to high up. Real steam punk vintage. Scary rackety-klack auto return. Hard to mount a decent new cartridge.

But what I really don't like are Japanese pll DD. They kill the music. That's what my ears tell me. You may disagree.
 
Somewhere in the discussion, it seems there ought to be a consideration of original cost. You would never try to compare a Chevy Impala to a Ferrari. But they are both cars and they both get you where you need to go. But would anyone ever try to make a case that a Ferrari is a better car? Not really. Everyone expects it to be better because it costs ten times as much as the Impala. So, trying to compare a Dual that cost $250 new to a turntable that cost $1000 or more is really an unfair comparison. If the more expensive turntable isn't better than the $250 model in some important ways, shame on the engineers who designed it. It seems to me that the discussion should be more about bang for the buck than head to head comparison. Does that $2000 turntable sound ten times better than the $200 one? In most cases, I doubt it. But since there are always people with enough money to take cost out of the purchase equation, that $1800 spent to reduce the background noise by 20% (or whatever the improvement might be) is completely worth it. Just don't brag about it. If it doesn't sound better in some way, it's a waste of money.
 
Did anyone else notice that the original thread was from 3 years ago? It wasn't long ago that the statement disparaging idler drives (or really, anything but low-torque belt drive) was conventional wisdom.
 
62vauxhall said:
My first brand new turntable was a Dual 1015 in 1968. Then switched to a belt drive Pioneer PL-12D in 1973 because idler drive tables were "bad". Followed in 1978 by a direct drive Aiwa AP2200 and was where I stayed until 2005 or so.

A need for 78 RPM arose, so another Dual crossed my path - a 1010. Found it at auction and there began the compulsion to obtain more and more old turntables.

There was an older Rega/SME combo and a Kenwood "Rock" both belt drives, an assortment of Dual belt & idler drives as well as a direct drive 701, multiple Elac's, some Garrard Zero 100's and a Pioneer direct drive PL-630. Plus a smattering of other late 70's Japanese offerings.

Over a few years I disposed of (sold/traded) all of them except these and they're idler drives.

Two Dual 1009's (first generation)
A Garrard Zero 100
An Elac 10, 50H and 750 II
BSR McDonald 810

I also kept the direct drive Pioneer PL-630.

Excluding the latter (which sees little use) I've gone 360 degrees. Started with idlers - ended with idlers.

In the works is a Thorens TD124 II which shall be my last turntable purchase. And it's an idler. Or at least the secondary drive is an idler. This one will not depose the others but be used in conjunction with them.

There is no real point in my posting this except to say that maybe, in very general terms, idler driven turntables have become in vogue - enjoying a renaissance so to speak.

Personally, I just like older turntable which in my case, happen to be idlers.
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Interesting thread. Early Thorens, Girrards, and Empires are really cool. Any way over my budget. Ten years ago Dual 1219 were cheap to acquire. My avatar 1219 is now 8 years old since I got it. Very quiet. Automatic! Ended yesterday with Betthovens 7th sym. Have 2 more 1219s. One I got for $100, an early bought in Germany version. It is very quiet coasts for 2 to 3 minutes when shut off. 62, how do you like the BSR 810? Have one next to my German version 1219. The BSR was bought in Europe. The record size is metric. Works well. Our taste in tables is similar. Have a Zero too..handy enough to keep all going and happily.
 
I have seen new Dual right out of the box, 1019's, and 1229's, that could barely meet NAB specs for W&F and rumble. . A Shure v-15 III in a dual arm was a dog, while it preformed in a SME 3009 MK III very well. You get what you pay for. Of course if your speakers don't perform below 40 Hz it really doesn't matter. I can remember back in the late 60's and early 70's watching the Grill cloth on Concert Grands flap in the breeze with noisy turntables. Mac ML-4 woofers with the grill removed looked like there was an earthquake attaching the woofers from noisy turn tables. You learn reel fast by looking at Mac ML & XR series speakers woofers which turntables and which records are bad or not. You could be using a Empire 698 with some records and the woofers were perfectly still and yes with some others the woofers were pumping in and out almost in distress between the bands and on the lead in and lead out grooves. Especially with Ortofon MC and London cartridges. Even old TD 124's were noisy compared to the little belt driven AR turntables. No wonder Thorens had to build the 125's and and 126's. They would have gone out of business if they hadn't. Now I will admit the some times puck driven tables have a seemingly strong sounding foundation, but they sure don't measure that way. Anyone heard VPI idler driven Titan models. For that kind of money I would rather have a 20 series SME. or the top of the line air driven Bergmann.
 
Visible woofer pumping sounds more like a bad compliance/effective mass interaction than rumble.
 
Stereofisher, I did not know what to expect from an 810 when I acquired it. Was from a local online auction with no provision for previews. So sight unseen. I read what I could find about them and was intrigued enough to make a bid. There were multiple turntables in that auction but mine was the only bid for the 810. I'm assuming the BSR nameplate scared off the others from bidding.

I was leary but I was relieved that it needed little to make it 100% operational.

To answer your question, I Iike it fine. It has the same motor as some Elac models, has a platter of similar weight and it accepts Elac changer spindles of which I have several including the one for 45's.

I did not immediately understand the auto play / single play switch at first. The stylus set down control is very handy. A criticism would be the cartridge slide not having slots to adjust overhang. I happened to have two slides and epoxied my cartridge of choice into the more or less correct position on one of them.

Another criticism is the stylus brush and/or overhang checker is not extendable/retractable as it is on an Elac.

Excluding those two points, overall performance and function is top notch.
 
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twiiii said:
I have seen new Dual right out of the box, 1019's, and 1229's, that could barely meet NAB specs for W&F and rumble. . A Shure v-15 III in a dual arm was a dog, while it preformed in a SME 3009 MK III very well. You get what you pay for. Of course if your speakers don't perform below 40 Hz it really doesn't matter. I can remember back in the late 60's and early 70's watching the Grill cloth on Concert Grands flap in the breeze with noisy turntables. Mac ML-4 woofers with the grill removed looked like there was an earthquake attaching the woofers from noisy turn tables. You learn reel fast by looking at Mac ML & XR series speakers woofers which turntables and which records are bad or not. You could be using a Empire 698 with some records and the woofers were perfectly still and yes with some others the woofers were pumping in and out almost in distress between the bands and on the lead in and lead out grooves. Especially with Ortofon MC and London cartridges. Even old TD 124's were noisy compared to the little belt driven AR turntables. No wonder Thorens had to build the 125's and and 126's. They would have gone out of business if they hadn't. Now I will admit the some times puck driven tables have a seemingly strong sounding foundation, but they sure don't measure that way. Anyone heard VPI idler driven Titan models. For that kind of money I would rather have a 20 series SME. or the top of the line air driven Bergmann.
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I have around 40 carts and amongst them there is a Decca Super Gold and it has no such issues, actually it is probably the best sounding cart I own and that is up against a lot of very good MC's. Re woofer pumping and idlers, again no, I have ATC scm100 speakers so yes they go below 40Hz and siting right in front of the speaker with high volume mt Lenco idler or my Commonwealth 12d3 which is an idler drive from the 50's, both are rumble wise to my ears silent and no woofer pumping. Listening to my sp10m2 with its Eminent Technology air arm same volume and sitting position you wont hear any rumble difference or see any driver differences, yes there will be measured differences but you and nobody else in real terms will hear them. My Orpheus which is belt and idler again 50's this time late 50's is also equally quiet. Any issues with any idler drive is normally and always was dry bearings or a dirty or glazed idler wheel. Problem with idler drives is they need maintenance. Idlers got a bad rep due to people using idler drive turntables desperate for service with flats on idler wheels, dry bearings and rock solid idler wheels.
Chris
 
That's a lot of cool turntables to think about and research. I've really just started looking for turntables again.

I'm a musician so know what I like to hear and so have gravitated towards Mission and Goodman speakers. The 'British speaker sound' seems to include a very rich and realistic midrange where, for me is where most of the typically popular brands fail, at least within my meager budget!
 
calgarywino said:
That's a lot of cool turntables to think about and research. I've really just started looking for turntables again.

I'm a musician so know what I like to hear and so have gravitated towards Mission and Goodman speakers. The 'British speaker sound' seems to include a very rich and realistic midrange where, for me is where most of the typically popular brands fail, at least within my meager budget!
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My Orphus Silex was 250 bucks Australian, my Conmonwealth was free but in a very sorry state and it took a lot of work to get it as it is now which is as new. My lenco was 100 quid, can't remember what SP10mk2 cost but it was not a fortune. That said I have spent a lot on it and the arm and a lot of time making the plinth. Amazing sound can be got for very little money but sometimes a bit of tlc is needed
Chris
 
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