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Econowaving Wharfedale W60s

Woofer nearfield measurement comparison

These woofers are not exact duplicates. Both have cloth surrounds, but one is sealed, apparently by the factory, with a dark, shiny sealant. The other cloth surround appears to be untreated. This is the only difference I can see between the two woofers.

The treated surround trace is blue. Untreated is magenta.

Should I treat the untreated one?
 
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How old are the surrounds? I might just
hold off and after the thrill is gone. I mean
when you want a new project. Refoam 'em!
Prob be the best.

What do they sound like'? youll be amazed!
 
Investigate further before doing anything. I can't imagine that doping the surround is going to shift the magenta one downward. I suspect there's some other explanation for this.

Measure the tuning of the two boxes, and the Fs of the woofers, using Woofer Tester.

Measuring ported alignments nearfield is difficult, as the ports are contributing to the LF output. Try from maybe 6" back with the mic centered between the ports and woofers. :yes:

golana said:
Refoam 'em! Prob be the best.
Click to expand...
They're cloth surrounds. It's not likely that installing foam surrounds instead would produce a comparable woofer.... :nono:
 
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nice to see the Wharfedale name uttered without being met by slander and vitriol..I recently picked up a pair of Valdus 500's for $60.00 in a near perfect, well broken in audio state of repair...they sound delightful! Mentioned that fact here, and soon sort of regretted doing so... wonderful project you've undertaken there, makes me want to attempt something similar...well done!
 
They look great, but I have one question.......why would you go through all that work, yet use the cheapest screws known to man to hold in the horns? Nothing says hack job like drywall screws sticking through the other side of a board.........Please understand, I'm not calling your speakers a hack job. The drywall screws look very out of place on your project. Wood screws with a flat or slightly rounded head can be easily purchased, or better yet, if you have the room, machine screws and T nuts.
 
Goodwill_HiFi said:
They look great, but I have one question.......why would you go through all that work, yet use the cheapest screws known to man to hold in the horns? Nothing says hack job like drywall screws sticking through the other side of a board.........Please understand, I'm not calling your speakers a hack job. The drywall screws look very out of place on your project. Wood screws with a flat or slightly rounded head can be easily purchased, or better yet, if you have the room, machine screws and T nuts.
Click to expand...

I happen to think the drywall screws look good.....and......the other side of the board is not visible. I have some gold or silver wood screws that I could have used......just didn't occur to me. I kind of like the screws not standing out visually, as they would if they were a different color. No offense taken, by the way. All opinions are welcome.
 
Initial listening impression

Have settled on the L-pad for now being at the 10 o'clock position when viewed from the back, 12:00 o'clock being 50%. At first I thought the bass was lacking, but put on Donald Fagen tunes and quickly that opinion faded. Don't know all the fancy words to describe how they sound. But I already had some very nice sounding speakers (e.g., ADS L1230s, Dahlquist DQ-10s, JBL L112s, Indignias, Zilch/Heath Specials, etc.) and these Wharfedale Econowaves are in the same league. Want to thank the AK Design Collaborative for the Econowave idea!! I had fun turning these old cabinets into something special. :banana:
 
BmWr75 said:
At first I thought the bass was lacking, but put on Donald Fagen tunes and quickly that opinion faded.
Click to expand...
Beautiful job with you speakers. :thmbsp:

I was wondering about the bass as I've been reading along with your thread. The older Wharfedale's are not known for having deep bass and I'm curious how well they play up high. I have a nice pair of W70D's that have blown tweets and never thought of eWaving them until now. :D
 
BmWr75 said:
I happen to think the drywall screws look good.....and......the other side of the board is not visible. I have some gold or silver wood screws that I could have used......just didn't occur to me. I kind of like the screws not standing out visually, as they would if they were a different color. No offense taken, by the way. All opinions are welcome.
Click to expand...

I think your missing the point...... you can buy wood screws that are black and won't stand out. I'm not saying you should have used silver or gold. I would agree with you that black is the way to go. I'm just saying a proper wood screw, or machine screws with t-nuts would have been a better match to your project.
 
I'll look for black wood screws with a higher "thread-count". Not sure that's the right technical term, but you know what I mean. :nerd:
 
Duffinator said:
Beautiful job with you speakers. :thmbsp:

I was wondering about the bass as I've been reading along with your thread. The older Wharfedale's are not known for having deep bass and I'm curious how well they play up high. I have a nice pair of W70D's that have blown tweets and never thought of eWaving them until now. :D
Click to expand...

Duffinator,

These Wharfedale woofers are not going to vibrate the walls. I moved them to my tube system and definitely think they are a little lacking in the bass department with tubes. Will do an AutoEQ with my DEQ2496 later to get an idea of how much the bass has to be boosted. This will let me "see" what I think I'm hearing.

Regards,
BmWr75
 
Zilch said:
Investigate further before doing anything. I can't imagine that doping the surround is going to shift the magenta one downward. I suspect there's some other explanation for this.

Measure the tuning of the two boxes, and the Fs of the woofers, using Woofer Tester.

Measuring ported alignments nearfield is difficult, as the ports are contributing to the LF output. Try from maybe 6" back with the mic centered between the ports and woofers. :yes:
Click to expand...

Hello Zilch,

I ran a DEQ2596 AutoEQ on these speakers today, L-pads set at 12:00 o'clock. Mic placed at my listening position. I know this is room/speaker interaction measurement, but that's what I'm interested in......how the speakers sound in my imperfect room. Here's a picture of the GEQ screen after the AutoEQ. You can see the EQ adjusted for a frequency peak at 1250 Hz and another one down around 120-160 Hz.

Regards,
BmWr75
 
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It looks like the woofers have a response peak in the 1.2 kHz region. The stuff down low is room modes.

Dial the L-pads "Off" and look at the RTA response of just the woofers at 1M, one speaker at a time.... :yes:
 
Zilch said:
It looks like the woofers have a response peak in the 1.2 kHz region. The stuff down low is room modes.

Dial the L-pads "Off" and look at the RTA response of just the woofers at 1M, one speaker at a time.... :yes:
Click to expand...

Zilch,

Here you go. Used REW software at 1 meter so we can easily compare the woofer responses. Kept everything in the measurement system constant, just moved the speakers into place.

Magenta = sealed surround, Blue = unsealed surround. This graph still shows the woofer with the sealed surround has better bass response.

However, I imagine there could be other factors causing the differences in freq. response, in addition to or instead of the surround sealing. As I said earlier, the two Wharfedales are not exact duplicates. One was a two-way and one was a three-way. Even though the woofers look identical in every other way, except the surround sealing, there still could be internal differences I guess.

Edit - I've not glued in the vent tube pieces past the 90 degree elbows. So, we still got this to play with if desired. Since the curves have nearly the same shape, could it be the woofer with the unsealed surround is just lower efficiency?

Regards,
BmWr75
 
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The two are definitely different.

Swap woofers between cabs and retest.

Separate issue, as I suspected, the lowpass filter should be tweaked to level the rising response in both cases. That's the reason you perceive the bass response to be lacking. You're going to lose considerable efficiency making them sound better.... :yes:
 
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Zilch said:
The two are definitely different.

Swap woofers between cabs and retest.

Separate issue, as I suspected, the lowpass filter should be tweaked to level the rising response in both cases. That's the reason you perceive the bass response to be lacking. You're going to lose considerable efficiency making them sound better.... :yes:
Click to expand...

Zilch,

The cabinets are identical in every way. So, would rather focus on other options than swapping the woofers in the cabinets. The fellow I bought the Wharfedales from already sold the other two, which would have been the exact mates to the mismatched two I bought.

Does PE sell a 12" woofer that might be a good candidate for these cabinets? The cutout opening is 10.75 inches diameter.
 
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Zilch said:
The two are definitely different.

Swap woofers between cabs and retest.

Separate issue, as I suspected, the lowpass filter should be tweaked to level the rising response in both cases. That's the reason you perceive the bass response to be lacking. You're going to lose considerable efficiency making them sound better.... :yes:
Click to expand...

Zilch,

Just remembered I have some OLA replacement woofers (no masonite ring) sitting on the shelf. Just checked and they will fit the Wharfedale woofer cutouts if mounted from inside the cabinet. The Wharfedale cabinets are very nearly the same size as OLA utility cabinets. Any thoughts on how the OLA woofs might sound? Close to the same as the Bauhausler Econowaves is my guess. I know......install them and measure......:yes:
 
Zilch,

Just reread Bauhausler's OLA Econowave build thread. It reminded me that OLAs are sealed enclosures. The Wharfedale W60s are ported enclosures. How will this affect the LF response using OLA replacement woofers? More bass, less bass? Bauhausler commented that his project seemed bass heavy until he added more cabinet stuffing.
 
BmWr75 said:
Duffinator,

These Wharfedale woofers are not going to vibrate the walls. I moved them to my tube system and definitely think they are a little lacking in the bass department with tubes. Will do an AutoEQ with my DEQ2496 later to get an idea of how much the bass has to be boosted. This will let me "see" what I think I'm hearing.

Regards,
BmWr75
Click to expand...

My W-60E's will reverb the walls with the bass drum strike from Copeland's "Fanfare for the Common Man", and the SX-3800 is only set at 12 o'clock. :yes: The g-kid uses them for his "Jump Dancing" music. He keeps it at about 10 o'clock.

Handles the opening bars of "2001" nicely, too. They have the square magnet and rubber surrounds. I have a pair of the older 12" with round, red magnets (Alnico??) and a porous gauze type surround. One day I'm gonna try them in the enclosure, but so far, I'm happy with the present sound.

ed: I see from your first post that your woofers are like my spares. Is the 3 way cabinet ported as well??
 
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