Econowaving Wharfedale W60s
- Thread starter BmWr75
- Start date
Harvey/ Ga
Super Member
Possible to post a closeup pic of both surrounds?? My 60E's are not ported and have rubber surrounds that are 2-3 times as thick as on my Infinity Qe woofer, or any other rubber surrounds that I've seen.
IIRC, I put one of the older woofers, with the stiff, gauze surround, in one of the cabinets. I didn't note any real differences, but that was before I re-capped them. Re-capping made a VERY BIG difference, mostly in the mids and highs. :thmbsp:
The screw holes didn't all match, so I reinstalled the original woofer.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-120
This one you might enjoy more. You'd have to enlarge the opening a little though.
This one you might enjoy more. You'd have to enlarge the opening a little though.
Here you go. Pic on left is unsealed. Pic on right is sealed. It's easy to see the difference. You can see right through the unsealed surround and I imagine air passes easily through it. The sealed surround looks like a factory applied sealant and doesn't appear to be porous much at all.
Last edited:
I'd be inclined to go ahead and seal the one that isn't sealed already. Just use something that stays very flexible.
I can see that equalizing the difference between the woofers. A leaky surround can act to upset port tuning... it'll raise the effective port frequency, which will cause a midbass peak and a low bass rolloff at too high of a frequency...
Regards,
Gordon.
I can see that equalizing the difference between the woofers. A leaky surround can act to upset port tuning... it'll raise the effective port frequency, which will cause a midbass peak and a low bass rolloff at too high of a frequency...
Regards,
Gordon.
It's as if they neglected to seal it.
PM member RoyC for a sample of his new cloth surround sealant formulation.
It'll be a good test, since you have measurement gear.... :yes:
Hi All,
I did receive the PM, and then read through this thread.
When testing various sealant materials, the Woofer Tester program was indispensable. I'm thinking the best way to determine what is going on is to measure these woofers, out of the cabinets, with WT2 or 3, as Zilch suggested earlier in this thread.
My sealant is thin and meant to be applied to previously sealed, very compliant, acoustic suspension woofers requiring a near air-tight cabinet seal, without adding significant mass or stiffness to the surround. I doubt my stuff will have much of an effect on a woofer in a ported cabinet. IF anything at all, I would recommend the thicker "Permatex High Tack Gasket Sealant" on the untreated woofer. The Permatex compound sets up to a more rubbery consistency.
Again, I strongly suggest measuring them with WT before applying anything. I suspect they are 2 different animals.:scratch2:
Roy
Last edited:
Harvey/ Ga
Super Member
Both of mine are the unsealed surround. A penciled date of 1/63 and a few other notations is on the back of each cone, near the surround.
The woofers in my 60E have the rubber surround, and no vents. I applied a rope of Dayton's speaker seal when I re-capped them. Sprayed Deoxit into the L-pads.
They sound so good that I'll probably put the other woofers on E-bay :scratch2:
Thanks, Roy!
[And the mystery deepens.
]Do they look like BmWr75's left pic?
BwanaJim
Well-Known Member
I think Zilch was right in suggesting you swap woofers and recheck.
It probably wouldn't make any difference but if it did then you could rule out the woofers and concentrate on the other variables. Think of the time and effort you could waste by not eliminating this possibility.......
P.S Great project, if my W60's had blown tweet's i would consider the same conversion but I might go with a front mounted woofer to compensate for the box volume loss of the horn.
It probably wouldn't make any difference but if it did then you could rule out the woofers and concentrate on the other variables. Think of the time and effort you could waste by not eliminating this possibility.......
P.S Great project, if my W60's had blown tweet's i would consider the same conversion but I might go with a front mounted woofer to compensate for the box volume loss of the horn.
Last edited:
The original Wharfedale tweeters were enclosed in an internal to the cabinet wooden box to prevent air movement caused by the woofer from interfering with the rather large diameter, non-enclosed-back tweeter. So, I doubt the waveguide is displacing much more volume, if any, than the wooden box did.
Have already considered front mounted woofers. The baffle hole will have to be opened up by ~3/4 inches or more. So, am having some wood adapter rings made for inside the box so I can try out some different woofers without messing up the stained baffles. Likely candidates are Original Large Advent - Jensen replacement woofers which I already have, or some Daytons from Parts Express.
I have some Wharfedale W60's or 70's (not sure which) I could pull the woofers from and photograph for you tonight for comparison if that would be helpful.
Harvey/ Ga
Super Member
Thanks, Roy!
[And the mystery deepens.
Do they look like BmWr75's left pic?
That they do.
Project done......really.....I mean it this time
I've worked with Dr. Zilch and other AKers on 4 speaker builds now. Every one of them vented cabinets:
Zilch/Heath AS-10s (honorary Econowaves)
ZLH-20s
Realistic MC-1000 Indignias
Wharfedale W60 Econowaves
I remember one time Zilch telling me that even vented cabinets need to be well sealed because you want all the air displaced by the woofer going through the vent tubes. It just didn't make sense to me that having one Wharfedale woofer with a sealed surround and one that was unsealed would not make a difference in frequency response between the two speakers.
So.......I sealed the unsealed woofer surround with Elmers Rubber Cement and let it dry for 12 hours. The graphs showing the FR for the two woofers are shown below. The first is a comparison of the unsealed woofer and sealed woofers. The second is both woofers with sealed surrounds.
Red trace is the formerly unsealed surround, magenta trace is the factory sealed surround in both graphs.
FYI - the factory sealed surround woofer measures 1 dB less efficient using pink noise.
Unseadled vs sealed surround results in the first graph show a 3-15 dB difference in the bass response curves. Sealing the unsealed surround reduced the bass FR response difference to ~0-2 dB.
All measurements taken using REW software, ECM8000 mic, full range speaker sineusoidal sweep, tweeters turned off, measured at 36" on axis with vent tubes.
I've worked with Dr. Zilch and other AKers on 4 speaker builds now. Every one of them vented cabinets:
Zilch/Heath AS-10s (honorary Econowaves)
ZLH-20s
Realistic MC-1000 Indignias
Wharfedale W60 Econowaves
I remember one time Zilch telling me that even vented cabinets need to be well sealed because you want all the air displaced by the woofer going through the vent tubes. It just didn't make sense to me that having one Wharfedale woofer with a sealed surround and one that was unsealed would not make a difference in frequency response between the two speakers.
So.......I sealed the unsealed woofer surround with Elmers Rubber Cement and let it dry for 12 hours. The graphs showing the FR for the two woofers are shown below. The first is a comparison of the unsealed woofer and sealed woofers. The second is both woofers with sealed surrounds.
Red trace is the formerly unsealed surround, magenta trace is the factory sealed surround in both graphs.
FYI - the factory sealed surround woofer measures 1 dB less efficient using pink noise.
Unseadled vs sealed surround results in the first graph show a 3-15 dB difference in the bass response curves. Sealing the unsealed surround reduced the bass FR response difference to ~0-2 dB.
All measurements taken using REW software, ECM8000 mic, full range speaker sineusoidal sweep, tweeters turned off, measured at 36" on axis with vent tubes.
Last edited:
Duffinator
Spin The Black Circle
Most excellent! :thmbsp: I wonder why the one surround wasn't sealed? Was it a replacement or mistake from the factory?
I wonder if the 15" in the W70D's would play flat enough up high to mate with an eWave?
I wonder if the 15" in the W70D's would play flat enough up high to mate with an eWave?
Don't think it was a mistake. The two speakers were not exact matches. One was a 2-way, the other a 3-way. That was the only difference. Think the early woofers may have just not been sealed. Harvey/GA has two with unsealed surrounds.
Last edited:
Wharfedale W60 Model D, 3 way, closed box, inverted cloth surrounds
We could know in a couple of minutes if the woofer parameters suggest that porting them would be advantageous, though BmWr75's measurements suggest it would. We might also follow his lead on the rest, as well.
It's interesting that the cross member is actually on the grille...
It's interesting that the cross member is actually on the grille...