Electric vehicle owners, let's talk.

[HTHMAN]

I do not want to get into the debate over the environment etc. but rather the practicality and cost of driving one.

Just for sake of comparison, assume gas is $2.50/gal and you get 30mpg on your gas powered vehicle. That is 8.3 cents per mile. Add in an oil change every 5000 or so and that adds about another penny per mile. Let's call it 9 cents per mile to drive.

How do they compare cost wise to drive, availability and convenience of charging stations, time to charge at home or on the road, power and acceleration, etc? Are you happy? Would you want as an only vehicle? Would you buy again?

 

[David_NC]

I don't own an electric vehicle, but I have quite a few friends who do. The problem I notice with them is that unless you buy a high end electric vehicle, such as a Tesla, the range is too limiting, if it's an only vehicle. Some have range extender generators which help. Someone owning an EV who lives in a big city where there's more sitting in traffic vs actual driving makes sense to me. There are quite a few charging stations in LA and Orange counties, but I'm not sure about areas outside CA. Charging on a standard 120 volt charger takes a really long time, but the 240 volt chargers are much faster.
The friends who have them and who commute are very happy with their reliability, fuel economy, and overall cost of ownership. The same applies to those who own hybrids along with not needing a charging station. A couple friends have plugin hybrids, and unless one can stay within or close to their very limited EV range, a standard hybrid makes more sense to me. Most say they will buy another EV or hybrid, when the time comes to replace it.
It might be better to look at actual cost per mile vs basing it on gas and oil change costs. The hybrids friends have have been exceptionally reliable. Brakes last a really long time, due to regenerative braking vs pad friction. See http://74.121.199.247/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/costs.pdf

 

[Djcoolray]

The cost of replacing and properly disposing of all those batteries without contaminating the water table will be just as devastating as the carbon and chemical build up in the atmosphere. Due to overpopulation, it’s the over use of anyone technology and the daily manufacturing of any technology in the long run that infers a high cost. Socially, it’s just another game of catch-up dealing with what it takes to put millions of whatever kind of cars on the road. Personal purchase cost in the long run will be the same if you discount the cost of keeping up with climate change.

 

[RossW]

Cost wise electric rates are a big factor. Here in MA we pay almost $0.25/kWh so an electric vehicle that gets 3mi/kWh (pretty standard if you're not babying it) is ~$0.08/mile. A hybrid (which can get 45MPG easily these days) is significantly cheaper to own. The Tesla charging network is pretty good, all the other ones are mediocre (both in terms of coverage and cost), but if you're doing most of your charging at home that doesn't matter so much.

My wife owns a Prius Prime (plugin hybrid), her next car will probably be another, and I'm eyeing the Rav4 Prime for my next vehicle. We have solar panels and she can charge at work which makes the plugin aspect worthwhile (plus MA used to pay you $2k to buy plugin hybrids or EVs).

 

[HTHMAN]

I have read some reports that when using charging stations on the road that the cost per mile of the electric is higher than gas. It is much harder to calculate what it costs you to charge at home and just like my golf cart, I discount anything it costs me to keep it charged. For all I know, it might cost me more to drive that cart around the neighborhood than my car.

With current range restrictions, would anyone consider one as an only vehicle?

 

[odelj48]

This is the last electric vehicle I bought for my son about 30 years ago.

 

[HTHMAN]

My EV

 

[David_NC]

The cost of replacing and properly disposing of all those batteries without contaminating the water table will be just as devastating as the carbon and chemical build up in the atmosphere. Due to overpopulation, it’s the over use of anyone technology and the daily manufacturing of any technology in the long run that infers a high cost. Socially, it’s just another game of catch-up dealing with what it takes to put millions of whatever kind of cars on the road. Personal purchase cost in the long run will be the same if you discount the cost of keeping up with climate change.

It's my understanding that current batteries are recycled and that there's very little left over to be disposed of. Is this not the case?

 

[David_NC]

I have read some reports that when using charging stations on the road that the cost per mile of the electric is higher than gas. It is much harder to calculate what it costs you to charge at home and just like my golf cart, I discount anything it costs me to keep it charged. For all I know, it might cost me more to drive that cart around the neighborhood than my car.

With current range restrictions, would anyone consider one as an only vehicle?

The ones I've seen locally have been free. Before Covid, I commuted to work via train. At the station near my work, there are free chargers in the parking structure, and I've seen them in many parking structures in LA. I'm not sure if this is the case elsewhere, but I'd imagine that this would be different in other locations.

 

[HTHMAN]

The ones I've seen locally have been free. Before Covid, I commuted to work via train. At the station near my work, there are free chargers in the parking structure, and I've seen them in many parking structures in LA. I'm not sure if this is the case elsewhere, but I'd imagine that this would be different in other locations.

That would be great, but someone has to pay for it. Tesla was offering a limited free supercharge deal but then they charge you. Maybe in the parking lot, it is rolled into the fee.

 

[David_NC]

That would be great, but someone has to pay for it. Tesla was offering a limited free supercharge deal but then they charge you. Maybe in the parking lot, it is rolled into the fee.

Of course somebody pays for it, just like public streets and the parking structures. The motivation is to get more EV's on the road and that either private charging stations will take over or battery range will get to the point that charging stations at private homes and offices will handle just about all charging needs. At this point, public stations would likely only be needed needed for trips, etc. If I had to rely on public stations on a regular basis, I think I'd go with a hybrid.

 

[SoCal Sam]

I don't own an electric vehicle, but I have quite a few friends who do. The problem I notice with them is that unless you buy a high end electric vehicle, such as a Tesla, the range is too limiting, if it's an only vehicle. Some have range extender generators which help. Someone owning an EV who lives in a big city where there's more sitting in traffic vs actual driving makes sense to me. There are quite a few charging stations in LA and Orange counties, but I'm not sure about areas outside CA. Charging on a standard 120 volt charger takes a really long time, but the 240 volt chargers are much faster.
The friends who have them and who commute are very happy with their reliability, fuel economy, and overall cost of ownership. The same applies to those who own hybrids along with not needing a charging station. A couple friends have plugin hybrids, and unless one can stay within or close to their very limited EV range, a standard hybrid makes more sense to me. Most say they will buy another EV or hybrid, when the time comes to replace it.
It might be better to look at actual cost per mile vs basing it on gas and oil change costs. The hybrids friends have have been exceptionally reliable. Brakes last a really long time, due to regenerative braking vs pad friction. See http://74.121.199.247/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/costs.pdf

Here in So Cal, EV makes some sense. However, in cold weather climates, charging takes forever and charge capacity is reduced which results in 20-40% drop in range. This is a serious handicap and potentially dangerous if caught far away from home in freezing weather. Hybrid makes better sense. There are no range limitations. Your point about batteries is true. Environmental issues are unavoidable. Perhaps the better opportunity exists in making EV battery size and connections standard so that replacements from different manufacturers are available. This concept is similar to portable device batteries (AA, AAA, C, D and so on) where Every Ready and Duracell are the dominant makers. Having standard sized EV batteries will be a benefit consumers and reduce the cost of batteries. Having standard battery sizes increases the market and encourages battery makers to innovate and sell into those markets. While there is an upper limit to battery Lithium energy density, there is a chance that more efficient materials can be found which would increase energy capacity.

On a side note, never be a stop light hero against an EV. Most of those pesky Teslas will smoke gas vehicles off the line.

 

[SoCal Sam]

Of course somebody pays for it, just like public streets and the parking structures. The motivation is to get more EV's on the road and that either private charging stations will take over or battery range will get to the point that charging stations at private homes and offices will handle just about all charging needs. At this point, public stations would likely only be needed needed for trips, etc. If I had to rely on public stations on a regular basis, I think I'd go with a hybrid.

I agree, Hybrid is the best solution.

 

[Alobar]

One thing to consider as to whether to go electric or not is the fact that with all the "green new deal" things in the pipeline, the grid upgrades, and the sources are in need of a massive upgrade. With more and more people turning to electric transportation exacerbating that situation, the price per KWH is going to climb, perhaps by a large amount. Solar, wind etc is fine and all but all have a big upfront cost to them, and these are, like the hydro projects in my state, floated with bonds, that must be paid by yours truly over time. What it costs to run a Tesla today may not be relevant to what it will be like in 5 years.

 

[432HzBob]

Read a story yesterday that in Texas now, the current cold snap and electric shortages, it would cost about $9,000 to charge a Tesla.
What SoCal Sam is true: Places like SoCal and urban area-close commute uses makes good sense for an electric,
but, remember a few years back the Paradise fire in California?
Yea, that was in the same county and just down the road from where I was raised.... No proper thinking local ol' boy would be caught dead
or maybe he would... trying to pack and evacuate that conflagration in an electric...
Nothing beats a good old fashioned gas or diesel car/truck that's properly tuned to get you out of a dangerous situation...
When I start seeing electric trucks in the outback in National Geographic specials, I may consider it's value and usefulness over my 30 year old Toyota 4x4..
I have my suspicions about whats behind the EV push.. $$$ in some people's pockets ...
Electricity doesn;t come from the wall socket... it comes from a big electrical powerplant buried out in the sticks that few ever get to see.

 

[elcoholic]

It's my understanding that current batteries are recycled and that there's very little left over to be disposed of. Is this not the case?

No commercial large scale lithium battery recycling exists. It’s unstable and tends to be very hazardous. Lithium mining has significant environmental impact. EV’s will make much more sense when an order of magnitude breakthrough occurs in battery chemistry, but you have to start somewhere. Fortunately only about 5% of the global new vehicle production is EV. I say fortunately because 41% of the world’s electricity still comes from nasty dirty coal. Modern gas engines are probably cleaner. A significant global shift away from gas to EV may not be such a good thing unless the global infrastructure is modernized in step.

 

[Alobar]

Read a story yesterday that in Texas now, the current cold snap and electric shortages, it would cost about $9,000 to charge a Tesla.
What SoCal Sam is true: Places like SoCal and urban area-close commute uses makes good sense for an electric,
but, remember a few years back the Paradise fire in California?
Yea, that was in the same county and just down the road from where I was raised.... No proper thinking local ol' boy would be caught dead
or maybe he would... trying to pack and evacuate that conflagration in an electric...
Nothing beats a good old fashioned gas or diesel car/truck that's properly tuned to get you out of a dangerous situation...
When I start seeing electric trucks in the outback in National Geographic specials, I may consider it's value and usefulness over my 30 year old Toyota 4x4..
I have my suspicions about whats behind the EV push.. $$$ in some people's pockets ...
Electricity doesn;t come from the wall socket... it comes from a big electrical powerplant buried out in the sticks that few ever get to see.

I read that too, but I think it was $900, not 9,000 but still, might as well be..

 

[Champco]

Saw a advertisement for a company which is pushing a paste. From a tube which when added to water turns into a Hydrogen gas. The cleanest fuel there is. If it is ever accepted I expect EV will be worth a lot less.

 

[SaSi]

I am not an EV owner but as an owner of a 21 years old car, I am looking in the market for a new one.
I will agree with the consensus that hybrid vehicles are more realistic. Shortage in raw materials to make new batteries mean that it's more efficient to make batteries for 4 hybrids than for a single EV vehicle. And a hybrid can have the benefits of electric energy in congested roads or driving downtown, at slow to moderate speeds, while retaining range and ease of refueling in this transitional (?) period. And the hybrid will also perform energy recovery, reducing the emission footprint of a vehicle, by being able to recharge while braking instead of giving out heat and wearing out brake pads and disks.

From what I've read, even in manufacturer's literature, charging a plugin vehicle is better done at low and moderate currents, i.e. a home, 10kW charger rather than fast charging at 30-50kW at a charging station. This supposedly increases battery life, which again is good for the "polution" footprint of the vehicle's lifecycle. Home charging a small 15kW battery overnight is pretty realistic. Which again gives another significant point for hybrids compared with EVs that have batteries ranging from 50-80kWh capacities. Of course, if someone uses the car for driving to work in a rural area and makes 20-40km (~20-25miles) per day, they would again be able to recharge the car overnight with a home charger. But also lose the thermal engine "backup" of a hybrid.

My ideal hybrid would be one that offers a decent power by the thermal engine to the front axle and at least half as that to the rear axle by means of an electric motor or two. That would give EV functionality during town driving, decent drive in highways and assisted 4 wheel drive, perhaps with a special drive mode, when needed or wanted. It looks like the VW group are trying out this idea with 2021 models in the Seat and Audi brands, with more likely to follow.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

I am not an EV owner but as an owner of a 21 years old car, I am looking in the market for a new one.
I will agree with the consensus that hybrid vehicles are more realistic. Shortage in raw materials to make new batteries mean that it's more efficient to make batteries for 4 hybrids than for a single EV vehicle. And a hybrid can have the benefits of electric energy in congested roads or driving downtown, at slow to moderate speeds, while retaining range and ease of refueling in this transitional (?) period. And the hybrid will also perform energy recovery, reducing the emission footprint of a vehicle, by being able to recharge while braking instead of giving out heat and wearing out brake pads and disks.

From what I've read, even in manufacturer's literature, charging a plugin vehicle is better done at low and moderate currents, i.e. a home, 10kW charger rather than fast charging at 30-50kW at a charging station. This supposedly increases battery life, which again is good for the "polution" footprint of the vehicle's lifecycle. Home charging a small 15kW battery overnight is pretty realistic. Which again gives another significant point for hybrids compared with EVs that have batteries ranging from 50-80kWh capacities. Of course, if someone uses the car for driving to work in a rural area and makes 20-40km (~20-25miles) per day, they would again be able to recharge the car overnight with a home charger. But also lose the thermal engine "backup" of a hybrid.

My ideal hybrid would be one that offers a decent power by the thermal engine to the front axle and at least half as that to the rear axle by means of an electric motor or two. That would give EV functionality during town driving, decent drive in highways and assisted 4 wheel drive, perhaps with a special drive mode, when needed or wanted. It looks like the VW group are trying out this idea with 2021 models in the Seat and Audi brands, with more likely to follow.

I agree with this line of thought. I feel like the Hybrid was a better solution for most people in terms of this situation. More practical as one's only car for most people, much more common sense.