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Electric vehicle owners, let's talk.

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No commercial large scale lithium battery recycling exists. It’s unstable and tends to be very hazardous. Lithium mining has significant environmental impact. EV’s will make much more sense when an order of magnitude breakthrough occurs in battery chemistry, but you have to start somewhere. Fortunately only about 5% of the global new vehicle production is EV. I say fortunately because 41% of the world’s electricity still comes from nasty dirty coal. Modern gas engines are probably cleaner. A significant global shift away from gas to EV may not be such a good thing unless the global infrastructure is modernized in step.

DIsclaimer: I am a gas guy but would choose hybrid over EV. This being said, EV should be a choice on the market as long as it is not subsidized or mandated. Battery recycling becomes easier if batteries are standardized for size and connections so that battery service centers are possible. This will make battery swapping convenient and inexpensive for the consumer. Give batteries a recycling value by collecting a deposit at new vehicle purchase. The deposit is redeemable even vehicle is wrecked out. Currently, batteries are bespoke and not inter-changeable between car makers. Consumers would have to buy from dealer which is expensive and as the car ages can exceed the value of the car which leads to retirement at the junkyard. This concept is known as beyond economical repair. All manufactured goods from the metal body to the battery itself carry carbon and environment investment and the longer they can be kept in service, the better for the environment and the consumer. This approach would work for hybrid and EV.
 
Read a story yesterday that in Texas now, the current cold snap and electric shortages, it would cost about $9,000 to charge a Tesla.
What SoCal Sam is true: Places like SoCal and urban area-close commute uses makes good sense for an electric,
but, remember a few years back the Paradise fire in California?
Yea, that was in the same county and just down the road from where I was raised.... No proper thinking local ol' boy would be caught dead
or maybe he would... trying to pack and evacuate that conflagration in an electric...
Nothing beats a good old fashioned gas or diesel car/truck that's properly tuned to get you out of a dangerous situation...
When I start seeing electric trucks in the outback in National Geographic specials, I may consider it's value and usefulness over my 30 year old Toyota 4x4..
I have my suspicions about whats behind the EV push.. $$$ in some people's pockets ...
Electricity doesn;t come from the wall socket... it comes from a big electrical powerplant buried out in the sticks that few ever get to see.

Elon is lurking... I agree with your take. I would add that in very dense smoke conditions, fossil fuel vehicle could be choked out and not start.
 
Our son has had a Tesla model 3 dual motor for about 1.5 years.

Very comparable range to most gas vehicles.

The primary use is commuting from one side of a 120,000 pop city to the other.
Sounds small, but traffic on that route can be downright horrible.

I asked him to do a semi-scientific study of the cost to charge it based on an average of their electric bills over 4-6 months.

After he installed the 30A 240V charger (much more efficient than a 120V charger) the cost per month was about $25-$35, making it cost about the same as a standard 80 gallon 240V water heater.
To me that means almost zero impact to "the grid" even if most people had one.
In fact, replace or augment your water heater with solar, and it becomes virtually free.

I had also thought that standardized batteries would open the market for competition and ease the issue of replacement.
However, the impediment is that currently so many are needed that the manufactures make custom cases to fit them into most irregular shapes, such as the rocker panel hollows, around the axles, etc.
Those areas would be shaped differently on different cars.
Perhaps smaller packs, or even flexible, like the size of a freezy ice pack. Of course now we need 350 connectors and wiring instead of 25.
 
I might also add that it is a ridiculous hoot to drive that car.

"Neck snapping" performance is actually an understatement.

Out of the box it did 0-60 in 3.3 seconds. After a software update, it's now 2.9.

That's Ferrari quick.
 
I might also add that it is a ridiculous hoot to drive that car.

"Neck snapping" performance is actually an understatement.

Out of the box it did 0-60 in 3.3 seconds. After a software update, it's now 2.9.

That's Ferrari quick.

No string back gloved Ferrari pilot worth his aviators would race a Tesla. Heck, me and my Crown Vic know better than to mix it up with a Prius.
 
In some states, annual vehicle registration is more expensive for all electric vehicles. Illinois for one
 
We have been low impact for many year - both cars have good fuel economy. A pair of Hondas for the 2 of us - my bought-new old 2000 Civic SI is her ride,
and I keep the road vehicle that can actually do some hauling (you should see my 2012 Fit loaded to the gills with bags of cedar mulch from Home Despot).
But I am convinced my next ride will be a Hybrid - probably a Rav4 Hybrid, not sure if it will be the Plugin Hybrid EV or regular Hybrid EV yet.
Most of our driving is local - but, we do run to Richmond or Harrisonburg VA a few times year, each drive is around 2 hrs/120 miles one way, so a pure EV is out.
We have no garage so we'd need the charging outlet on the side of the house IF we go PHEV.
 
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Problem as I see it, the US power grid is about 50 years away from supporting what people want to go to. energy is energy and it has to come from somewhere., there is no magic bunny. if you replace the KJoules of work a SI or CI engine produces, that is a TREMENDOUS amount - just do the math.

Every so many years I update and republish a 'thesis' I started back in the 90's on the real costs to replace just gasoline with renewable liquid fuels. I never covered the toxic effects of the excess production of NOx and O3 that using oxygenated fuels brings (all alcohol based fuels are oxygenated by nature) and how it would wipe out up to half the population, but rather from the side of how much farming landmass needs to be repurposed for renewables. suffice to say, Exx fuels are quickly running out of favor - there is no positive cost/benefit.

so on we go to alternate sources....fuel cells, batteries.

WE aint there yet. Ignore the 'it goes fast' part and ignore the fact that the part of the car that is NOT 'electric powertrain' can be as elegant as anything else. the electric powertrains, by comparison, are 1920's chevrolets in terms of derivable utility. the cheapest gasoline car can go NY->LA about a *day* faster than any EV, simply because of the range/charge time limitations.

Lets assume we solve that...lets assume we extend range to close to 400 miles per tank (a reasonable highway estimate for about anything) - with the AC on, at night, we got to get the 100% charge time down to 5 minutes instead of '45 minutes for 80%'

The fact still remains that as the US as a whole drop off of gas cars to EVs, the grid, which is becoming more and more unstable as 'green energy' is applied, has to absorb this load. This is the US, we drive a lot as a whole. You can convert the daily gas consumption into Joules and take 25% (a low number) efficiency to make it EV equivalent and quickly find, we do not have the US capacity now, by a long shot.

BUT! its not over. Part of this push is also to remove coal, oil, wood and NG/LPG from home heating and replace with electric. natural gas is the most efficient form of home heating. electric is the LEAST efficient. To change over all the houses as well, AND use solar water heating, would require nearly a tripling of current US generating capacity.

This aint gonna come from wind or solar - in its current form. So there is a lot of work to do. Unfortunately, those in charge of creating this, do not have any education or experience along these lines. So the hurdles we have are gonna get worse - first.

that all being said, even at my advanced age, I think a *differently* powered vehicle will be in my driveway if I live a full life. Just not now.

I would pay attention to MOXIE or however they are spelling on, on perseverance. the catalyst reaction to produce O2 from CO2 has earth bound implications. If they dont ignite the martian atmosphere, it could work here.
 
Elon is lurking... I agree with your take. I would add that in very dense smoke conditions, fossil fuel vehicle could be choked out and not start.
If Elon's gamble on making his own tabless LI cells pays off and gets close to the target goals he have a real game changer for affordable EV's.

I do not want to get into the debate over the environment etc. but rather the practicality and cost of driving one.

Just for sake of comparison, assume gas is $2.50/gal and you get 30mpg on your gas powered vehicle. That is 8.3 cents per mile. Add in an oil change every 5000 or so and that adds about another penny per mile. Let's call it 9 cents per mile to drive.

How do they compare cost wise to drive, availability and convenience of charging stations, time to charge at home or on the road, power and acceleration, etc? Are you happy? Would you want as an only vehicle? Would you buy again?
It's much more complex than comparing the cost of gas to electricity. In California I pay
$0.21/kwh compared to the national average of $0.13 or 62% more. Outside of the marketing department TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) is the accepted comprehensive way to look at it and make an informed choice. Car & Driver did a pretty good one here.
 
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DIsclaimer: I am a gas guy but would choose hybrid over EV. This being said, EV should be a choice on the market as long as it is not subsidized or mandated. Battery recycling becomes easier if batteries are standardized for size and connections so that battery service centers are possible. This will make battery swapping convenient and inexpensive for the consumer. Give batteries a recycling value by collecting a deposit at new vehicle purchase. The deposit is redeemable even vehicle is wrecked out. Currently, batteries are bespoke and not inter-changeable between car makers. Consumers would have to buy from dealer which is expensive and as the car ages can exceed the value of the car which leads to retirement at the junkyard. This concept is known as beyond economical repair. All manufactured goods from the metal body to the battery itself carry carbon and environment investment and the longer they can be kept in service, the better for the environment and the consumer. This approach would work for hybrid and EV.
Me too, but down the road, who knows? Probably isn't going to pan out on a TCO basic for me in my lifetime, as I'm 65. I buy new cars based on at least 10 years of ownership, so I won't be due for another 8 1/2 years. I've said the same thing about standardization, but history shows that won't happen without government mandate. History further shows that every attempt at a "People's Car" generally yields inferior results. The original VW Bug concept was based on 4 bolt engine exchanges which didn't pan out and yet the Bug reached world wide saturation anyway. So that may be the exception. There's an interesting and entertaining* documentary on the "people's car" by James May on Prime Video if your interested.

* Of course "entertaining" depends on how you feel about James May
 
In some states, annual vehicle registration is more expensive for all electric vehicles. Illinois for one

And I would expect all will follow suit in some way as more come on line. Since they're gonna get a smaller cut from gasoline tax they'll work to compensate in some other way on those vehicles.
 
And I would expect all will follow suit in some way as more come on line. Since they're gonna get a smaller cut from gasoline tax they'll work to compensate in some other way on those vehicles.

Exactly. Where is the money going to come from to maintain/fix the roads? Also, the oil industry is not going to go down without a fight. They'll lower gas prices so it will be cheaper to just drive your gasoline engine car.
 
As well as being a classic car owner, I am typically a "buy a 2 year old vehicle to avoid depreciation and drive until it ain't worth nuthin" guy on my daily drivers.

I don't think that works too well with EVs.

...or maybe there's not been enough time for that to cycle.
 
And I would expect all will follow suit in some way as more come on line. Since they're gonna get a smaller cut from gasoline tax they'll work to compensate in some other way on those vehicles.
At least Illinois is very close to the national average for residential energy costs.
 
I do not own one, and I can safely say yet. I have 3 friends that have had Tesla for a few years now. They love them and I often get to drive them. I will be buying something in 2022, the new Bronco is #1 but I have my Jeep that isn’t going anywhere so that’s a soft #1. If the Tesla P/U is an option when I am ready that will be a contender. I have also been devouring info on the Mach-E so there is another. I have already mapped out my long trip (to my dads) plenty of charging at rest stops along the way. For me no big deal to plan stops for charging, food stop, play with the dogs etc. Bonus is self-driving, beers while charging :beatnik:
:beerchug:

Edit: I have also had the chance to ride an electric HD a few times. Short rides but :thumbsup:
 
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Exactly. Where is the money going to come from to maintain/fix the roads? Also, the oil industry is not going to go down without a fight. They'll lower gas prices so it will be cheaper to just drive your gasoline engine car.
Food for thought - A 42 gallon barrel of crude oil yields 45 gallons of product yet only 19 gallons is gasoline, yet gasoline is the golden egg of revenue. When you remove gasoline from the refining equation all the other products will have to increase in price to make up for it. How do we feel about the $50 vinyl record?
 
I like the extended range hybrid like the Chev volt was that can run on electric power for at least 50 miles till batteries are much better environmentally and give much more range.

For long distance travel we need to get everyone together as we sure are far behind overseas countries with our non existent high speed electric trains which would
be much better for the environment then airplanes.
 
For long distance travel we need to get everyone together as we sure are far behind overseas countries with our non existent high speed electric trains which would
be much better for the environment then airplanes.
QFT
 
I like the extended range hybrid like the Chev volt was that can run on electric power for at least 50 miles till batteries are much better environmentally and give much more range.
Maybe the best compromise right now, but Chevy really never got it off the ground. In my area, I have only ever seen a couple of them in the wild. Lots of Teslas.
 
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