Electrolytic Capacitor Shoot-Out
- Thread starter patfont
- Start date
If you have a "strong background in the sciences" you should be acutely aware of the methodological deficiencies in this capacitor shootout. This has been pointed out by very knowledgeable folks on this site but you seem determined to ignore their warnings and to praise the 'scientific' legitimacy of this endeavor.
In this shootout, the experimenter knows exactly which caps are being used, how much they cost, where they are placed and their prior reputations. Not to mention it is being carried out on one piece of equipment and being judged by one person - the experimenter. Glowing and mellifluous descriptions of each cap's performance cannot turn this effort into a meaningful 'scientific' exercise.
Need I quote myself,
'We are aware of the limitations of this study; BUT, I ask you,
What can one man do? Where is the Million Dollars for a Scientific Experiment?'
Further, I would ask,
Where's your contribution?
aidynphoenix
Super Member
I'm sorry I jumped back in this thread...I know you are trying to contribute, and I applaud your effort. But in the final analysis, all we have are a lot of meaningless and contradictory descriptions of the performance of various capacitors in one piece of gear, performed by one person who's opinion is worth whatever the reader deigns to assign to it.
Nelson Pass has said on many occasions over at DiyAudio that much too much is made of electrolytic cap selection, and I tend to agree. Choose a cap designed for the job at hand and move on.
Nelson Pass has said on many occasions over at DiyAudio that much too much is made of electrolytic cap selection, and I tend to agree. Choose a cap designed for the job at hand and move on.
I agree with you choose a cap and move on and that seems to be your mantra. But evedently with 8,000 views and pretty much passing all the sticky's in views there are a couple people who want to pick the best cap and then move on. Check out the propietary teflon caps in the new Corad Johnson equipment, they think caps are importiant and are pretty much blowing away the competition. I do thank you though, whole heartidly for defending the other side of the arguement.
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I wonder why the cap manufacturers bother to make such a wide variety of electrolytic caps.
Why do they specifically market some for 'Audio' use and others not?
Have they totally wasted their time and ours?
If going to the trouble to open up your receiver, and replace the caps, does it really make sense to put in caps that will not give your receiver the best performance, consistent with reasonable cost?
I don't know about others; but if I'm going to all this trouble, I want to hear an improvement.
And, I'll gladly pay a few dollars more to get it.
Why do they specifically market some for 'Audio' use and others not?
Have they totally wasted their time and ours?
If going to the trouble to open up your receiver, and replace the caps, does it really make sense to put in caps that will not give your receiver the best performance, consistent with reasonable cost?
I don't know about others; but if I'm going to all this trouble, I want to hear an improvement.
And, I'll gladly pay a few dollars more to get it.
Phono Board Final Results
As a preface this is one mans opinion in one mans Marantz 2220B. Agree or disagree I would only ask that you try this for your self. If your system is not up to snuff they may all very well sound alike but in my system they do not. So take this with a grain of salt, or look else where, oh………there is no where else to look on the whole world wide web if you do find something where someone went through this trouble put up the link. As for me I loved every minute of this and will continue to the Pre Board and Amp Board, but I am already pretty sure I know the outcome. If someone would like to do a scientific chart of the cap with lowest ESR and highest temp rating lets put that up too. For me I really do not worry about measurements I worry about how it sounds.
Some things I believe we could extrapolate:
If something sounds good in one Marantz Power Supply it may in fact sound good in another.
If something sounds good in a Phono board of one Marantz it may also do the same in another.
Phono Board Cap Shoot-Out Final results:
5th Place: Panasonic FC
On the phono board the Panasonic FC are sounding very small 2D and restricted. Although they are acceptable in the Power Supply (although I do not know why you would use them with such better alternatives) I cannot recommend these to be used on the phono board. Some may want to use them in the Power Supply knowing they will probably be good for another 30+ years, but again here also they sound 2D but not as bad as using them in the phono section.
4th Place: Elna Cerafine
These are just IMHO too colored for the phono board, they do however have excellent imaging and soundstage. The mids are pushed forward and the highs are elevated, probably something you do not want in the phono stage. Again if you are in a very dead room and are using speakers that are very rolled off in the highs they could be the ticket. A great use for these is as a mixed cap, use 1 cap on the power supply board, and choose the location that uses the lowest value cap. You will get a nice little midrange push and a nice crisp and transparent high end. (Don’t believe me try it.)
3rd Place: Nichicon KZ
Just as in the Power Supply these are you safest bet, they are very very accurate they have a good sound stage and really never impart any sound of there own. The Panasonic FC should not be the defacto standard the Nichicon KZ should be. For power supply use you will however probably have to use an FG in a spot as the KZ tops out at 50V.
2nd Place: Nichicon ES
What is this doing here this is a bipolor cap. Well I wanted to include it because I have heard some very good things about it. Some of you more technical minded can chime in about any draw backs with these but I was assured by the vendor I purchased these from that I could use in the place of a regular polarized cap. On the upside they are everything the KZ’s are but with an even better soundstage and better imaging. (Well they do not measure well they cannot be good, try them!)
1st Place: Elna Silmic II
Huge soundstage, great soundstage depth. These are very transparent on the phono board. The upper bass and lower mid bump is barely noticeable on the phono board. They are the most listenable cap of the group, they are pretty much perfection and you can hear the difference between this and the ES they are that much better.
So to me on the phono board the better caps had a very nice deep and wide sound stage and in the case of the Silmic II, great dimensionality. On the phono board the better cap you use the more transparent the sound will be. On the right program material the Silmic II pretty much defy the speakers, soundstage is deep and way behind the speakers and way to the outside of the speaker cabinets truly a job well done!
As a preface this is one mans opinion in one mans Marantz 2220B. Agree or disagree I would only ask that you try this for your self. If your system is not up to snuff they may all very well sound alike but in my system they do not. So take this with a grain of salt, or look else where, oh………there is no where else to look on the whole world wide web if you do find something where someone went through this trouble put up the link. As for me I loved every minute of this and will continue to the Pre Board and Amp Board, but I am already pretty sure I know the outcome. If someone would like to do a scientific chart of the cap with lowest ESR and highest temp rating lets put that up too. For me I really do not worry about measurements I worry about how it sounds.
Some things I believe we could extrapolate:
If something sounds good in one Marantz Power Supply it may in fact sound good in another.
If something sounds good in a Phono board of one Marantz it may also do the same in another.
Phono Board Cap Shoot-Out Final results:
5th Place: Panasonic FC
On the phono board the Panasonic FC are sounding very small 2D and restricted. Although they are acceptable in the Power Supply (although I do not know why you would use them with such better alternatives) I cannot recommend these to be used on the phono board. Some may want to use them in the Power Supply knowing they will probably be good for another 30+ years, but again here also they sound 2D but not as bad as using them in the phono section.
4th Place: Elna Cerafine
These are just IMHO too colored for the phono board, they do however have excellent imaging and soundstage. The mids are pushed forward and the highs are elevated, probably something you do not want in the phono stage. Again if you are in a very dead room and are using speakers that are very rolled off in the highs they could be the ticket. A great use for these is as a mixed cap, use 1 cap on the power supply board, and choose the location that uses the lowest value cap. You will get a nice little midrange push and a nice crisp and transparent high end. (Don’t believe me try it.)
3rd Place: Nichicon KZ
Just as in the Power Supply these are you safest bet, they are very very accurate they have a good sound stage and really never impart any sound of there own. The Panasonic FC should not be the defacto standard the Nichicon KZ should be. For power supply use you will however probably have to use an FG in a spot as the KZ tops out at 50V.
2nd Place: Nichicon ES
What is this doing here this is a bipolor cap. Well I wanted to include it because I have heard some very good things about it. Some of you more technical minded can chime in about any draw backs with these but I was assured by the vendor I purchased these from that I could use in the place of a regular polarized cap. On the upside they are everything the KZ’s are but with an even better soundstage and better imaging. (Well they do not measure well they cannot be good, try them!)
1st Place: Elna Silmic II
Huge soundstage, great soundstage depth. These are very transparent on the phono board. The upper bass and lower mid bump is barely noticeable on the phono board. They are the most listenable cap of the group, they are pretty much perfection and you can hear the difference between this and the ES they are that much better.
So to me on the phono board the better caps had a very nice deep and wide sound stage and in the case of the Silmic II, great dimensionality. On the phono board the better cap you use the more transparent the sound will be. On the right program material the Silmic II pretty much defy the speakers, soundstage is deep and way behind the speakers and way to the outside of the speaker cabinets truly a job well done!
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Re leads: I wouldn't gain any useful conclusion from that test rig either.
Re: limitations. Having another person blind test would likely cost nothing. Shorter leads would take minutes.
Food for thought: Have you ever considered why Panasonic hasn't got into the audio grade cap labeling game? or why so fewer published specs are available for well regarded audio grade electrolytic caps like KG,FG,RFS,BG..etc when compared with well regarded general caps like FC,FM,HE?
Good luck with your tests. BTW, I like SilmicII too. Do they sound better?, yep they sound better than 30year old caps.
Re: limitations. Having another person blind test would likely cost nothing. Shorter leads would take minutes.
Food for thought: Have you ever considered why Panasonic hasn't got into the audio grade cap labeling game? or why so fewer published specs are available for well regarded audio grade electrolytic caps like KG,FG,RFS,BG..etc when compared with well regarded general caps like FC,FM,HE?
Good luck with your tests. BTW, I like SilmicII too. Do they sound better?, yep they sound better than 30year old caps.
aidynphoenix
Super Member
its good to hear you say that. i just put all SilmicII in my M-4.
yea they are brown and dont look pretty. but my amp sounds good now.
if techinically film is supposed to be superior to electrolyc caps.
maybe you should try a film cap in the phono section there, and see if it improves your sound more than the SilmicII did.
yea they are brown and dont look pretty. but my amp sounds good now.
if techinically film is supposed to be superior to electrolyc caps.
maybe you should try a film cap in the phono section there, and see if it improves your sound more than the SilmicII did.
As one of the most respected tech contributors on this forum, your trouble with Pat's hard work puzzles me.
While, as you describe, relying exclusively on one man's subjective auditory descriptions of these caps quickly get's us into murky waters.
But, then, Pat never claimed to have the 'Golden Ear'. He never represented his conclusions as anything more than his own impressions.
As has been repeatedly suggested, it is best to take his personal observations with a grain of salt. No doubt.
But, for those who may want to put Pat's observations to their own personal test, let me say, 'Right on'.
Do your thing and let us know what you think. That's how we, collectively, may build a database of useful audio components, on which we may rely, when it comes time for that next recap.
In fact, I invite you to put Pat's 'Findings' to your own personal test.
Oh, and please, let us know what you personally experience.
We will be anxious for your considered opinion, after you put the ELNA Silmic II and the Nicnicon KZ to the test.
Please...
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We are talking about electrolytic caps, remember?
Film caps be a whole new ball game.PB_Audio, I've done the testing here long ago, and I'll take the Elna's Silmic's over the Nichicon KZ's any day. But I've not posted any sort of lengthy comparison as I don't consider my voiced opinion worth the calories expended to punch the letters on the keyboard to say one way or another.
We are talking about electrolytic caps, remember?
PB_Audio, I've done the testing here long ago, and I'll take the Elna's Silmic's over the Nichicon KZ's any day. But I've not posted any sort of lengthy comparison as I don't consider my voiced opinion worth the calories expended to punch the letters on the keyboard to say one way or another.
'Thou doth protest too much'.
Of course, others would value your opinion. Are you kidding?
I certainly value your opinion, even if I may not always agree.
I think others would love to know your impressions.
With so many of us replacing these caps, we'll take all the guidance we can get. It's through the collective weight of the evidence that we may find the truth. And, yes, anyone's individual opinion needs to be taken with a grain of salt...that's a given. And yet, it all adds to the weight of the evidence.
Best regards.