That video is awesome. Best thing to do is maybe go on ebay and search your receiver eg. 2220B, and there is always someone selling the circuit boards seperate. Buy one and practice on it until you feel confident.
Here is my soldering setup:
Electrolytic Capacitor Shoot-Out
- Thread starter patfont
- Start date
That video is awesome. Best thing to do is maybe go on ebay and search your receiver eg. 2220B, and there is always someone selling the circuit boards seperate. Buy one and practice on it until you feel confident.
Here is my soldering setup:
Phono Board Results!
I will post results here and then quote as I update that way all will be in one place.
Panasonic FC: In the phono board the Panasonic FC is really sounding small, flat (2D) and closed in. It makes music but I would not recommend for phono board use. On the Power Supply it is acceptable though. I know alot of you love this series of cap, it has been the defacto standard for some for cap replacement in Marantz equipment. Like I have said before it is a general purpose cap, and when put up against the other contenders (audio grade) it just does not hold up. The Silmic, Cerafine, KZ, and ES are better by a large and noticable margin.
I will post results here and then quote as I update that way all will be in one place.
Panasonic FC: In the phono board the Panasonic FC is really sounding small, flat (2D) and closed in. It makes music but I would not recommend for phono board use. On the Power Supply it is acceptable though. I know alot of you love this series of cap, it has been the defacto standard for some for cap replacement in Marantz equipment. Like I have said before it is a general purpose cap, and when put up against the other contenders (audio grade) it just does not hold up. The Silmic, Cerafine, KZ, and ES are better by a large and noticable margin.
bonsaichop
Member
That video is awesome. Best thing to do is maybe go on ebay and search your receiver eg. 2220B, and there is always someone selling the circuit boards seperate. Buy one and practice on it until you feel confident.
Here is my soldering setup:
Nice Hakko 936
I had one a while back, took it to work to do a quick job and it disappeared overnight. Picked up a generic temp controlled+esd safe one that does the job but I still miss my Hakko.
I do as a side note want to discuss bypassing the Main Filter Caps.
Why do it: When you install a good bypass cap all of the grunge and hash and grain will go away things that we actually think are part of the sound will go away.
*******Warning you may or may not like it, some may not be ready for it, after years of thinking the treble sounds a certain way, when all the hash and grain is removed you are like-Huh! Now you will hear everything seperated and not mushed togeather in the sound field you will hear the decay of a cymbal which you could not hear before. The other huge thing is now the music sound field and background are dead quiet and you can really hear every detail kind of spooky at first. The music now sounds v-e-r-y PURE and homogeneous.
1st I tried the Vishay which was "I can not live with out this status" (but in that test it was in a speaker cross over) I did not keep them in my unit they diminised the soundstage.
I then put in the Mundorfs and perfect soundstage the same as usual, and all the grunge, grain, and hash gone. They are staying in.
Here are the 2 film caps tried:
Vishay MKP-1837 0.1uf 100VAC / 160VDC 1%
Mundorf MKP 2.2uf 250V I know most say it does not matter but I had Parts Connexion match these film caps they charge a dollar per set for the service.
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Are you confident that you have a fair test, given that the values of the Vishay and Mundorf Bypass Caps are so different, 0.1uf 160VDC Versus 2.2uf 250V, respectively.
Also, perhaps I missed it, but what specific Filter Caps are you Bypassing,
ie, Make, Model, and Value of the Filter Caps?
Important, if in fact, the selection of the Bypass Caps, at least to some degree, are a function of the Filter Caps being Bypassed.
Also, perhaps I missed it, but what specific Filter Caps are you Bypassing,
ie, Make, Model, and Value of the Filter Caps?
Important, if in fact, the selection of the Bypass Caps, at least to some degree, are a function of the Filter Caps being Bypassed.
Sir.Byrd
Lunatic Member
I would replace the filter caps you are bypassing, they look ready to go with that powder on the bottom. I think that'll make more of a difference than bypassing.
Also, it is curious that you are using a bipolar electrolytic cap in a polarized position, it seems like the cap would not perform as well because it has worse specs than the polarized versions (it is essentially two caps of twice the value in opposite orientation in series)
Also, it is curious that you are using a bipolar electrolytic cap in a polarized position, it seems like the cap would not perform as well because it has worse specs than the polarized versions (it is essentially two caps of twice the value in opposite orientation in series)
pete_mac
Super Member
0.1uf is waaaaay too small in this application. It is fine for use with crossover caps where you are are using them in conjunction with midrange and tweeter capacitors only (generally always under 20uf) but not for power supply filter caps which are several thousands of microfarads.
For any comparison to be valid, you really need to be using caps of an identical value (and of a value suitable for the intended purpose). I am certain that the Vishays in 2.2uf value would perform very nicely, and would be all but indistinguishable from the Mundorf in this particular by-pass application.
Hi,
They are the Main Filter caps in the 2220B I am using. They are the stock Chemi Cons (the originals) 6800uf 35V. I was not really pitting these bypass caps against each other but wanted to see what effect they would have on the sound. The Vishay was very highly rated in another test, so for 2.25 each I just wanted to give them a try. Sadly that is the highest rated value they come in, so possibly not a good choice for Main Filter cap bypass but for cross overs in speakers, and bypassing other smaller caps.
Hi Sir Byrd thanks for chiming in: Yes thanks for pointing that out I have my eye on these for my next order, in fact you reccommended these to me when I was restoring my other 2220B and they are same size (35mm) and have lugs so no mods needed. The stock caps are 60mm tall, the Nichicons are 80mm tall, they just make it under the bonnet by 3-5mm!
NICHICON-73633
10,000uF / 50V, KG Series, Gold Tune, 35x80, Solder Lug
About the Nichicon Muse ES bipolor, I wanted to include it because despite this fact I have heard some good about it. It is way better sounding then a Panasonic FC so that should merit inclusion on its own. I am still listening and it very well may beat out one of the other caps I am listening to.
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As I stated in my other reply for 2.25 each I just had to try them, and that is the largest value they come in. I was not really pitting one against the other just wanted to see what effect they had on the sound. The Vishay were indeed tested in a cross over, and I actually emailed the tester to ask about this, and he said he never tried them in an amp, so i figured i would. The Mundorfs work and I am happy.
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While the relatively small Filter Caps (6800uf / 35V Chemi Cons) in the Marantz 2220B would not warrant the added complexity; nevertheless, it might be interesting to follow the one productive 'rule-of-thumb' we have received, and try these 'stacked' Bypass Caps:
Mundorf M-Cap MKP 6.8uf / 250V,
AND another Vishay VISROD 0.01uf / 160DCV,
both in parallel with the Filter Caps.
Would you hear a difference?
THAT is the question...
Likely a useful configuration, though, in larger amps, with larger filters, like the 510/510M and maybe even the 170DC, 240, 250, 300DC, etc.
I'll try it in a 510M and 250 this winter...but, don't hold your breath.
Mundorf M-Cap MKP 6.8uf / 250V,
AND another Vishay VISROD 0.01uf / 160DCV,
both in parallel with the Filter Caps.
Would you hear a difference?
THAT is the question...
Likely a useful configuration, though, in larger amps, with larger filters, like the 510/510M and maybe even the 170DC, 240, 250, 300DC, etc.
I'll try it in a 510M and 250 this winter...but, don't hold your breath.
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Cringe
I mean this in the nicest way possible, and hope that you'll want to learn rather than being offended. I applaud your willingness to experiment and feel that is a healthy way to gain experience. That being said, your test rig and bypass cap installation photos reveal that you ignore one of the most basic and most essential rules of capacitor installation: the length of your leads, and the negative effects of the associated inductance. How you expect to gain any useful perspective from conducting non-blind listening tests, particularly with this setup, is a mystery to me.
I'm no means more than a novice and I stand to learn many things from many others here so I hold no judgement. Though, I know enough to say that everyone following this thread with interest rather than anxiety should explore all available avenues in the pursuit of educating oneself about the do's/don'ts and truths/fallacy of capacitor replacement. Some of which include: audible differences of various dielectrics from a scientific point of view, a firm grasp of capacitor type/value selection and the strengths/weaknesses among those types, understanding the function of the capacitor in the various audio related circuit types, where and when to bypass .... and that's just the basics.
I mean this in the nicest way possible, and hope that you'll want to learn rather than being offended. I applaud your willingness to experiment and feel that is a healthy way to gain experience. That being said, your test rig and bypass cap installation photos reveal that you ignore one of the most basic and most essential rules of capacitor installation: the length of your leads, and the negative effects of the associated inductance. How you expect to gain any useful perspective from conducting non-blind listening tests, particularly with this setup, is a mystery to me.
I'm no means more than a novice and I stand to learn many things from many others here so I hold no judgement. Though, I know enough to say that everyone following this thread with interest rather than anxiety should explore all available avenues in the pursuit of educating oneself about the do's/don'ts and truths/fallacy of capacitor replacement. Some of which include: audible differences of various dielectrics from a scientific point of view, a firm grasp of capacitor type/value selection and the strengths/weaknesses among those types, understanding the function of the capacitor in the various audio related circuit types, where and when to bypass .... and that's just the basics.
I do as a side note want to discuss bypassing the Main Filter Caps.
Why do it: When you install a good bypass cap all of the grunge and hash and grain will go away things that we actually think are part of the sound will go away.
*******Warning you may or may not like it, some may not be ready for it, after years of thinking the treble sounds a certain way, when all the hash and grain is removed you are like-Huh! Now you will hear everything seperated and not mushed togeather in the sound field you will hear the decay of a cymbal which you could not hear before. The other huge thing is now the music sound field and background are dead quiet and you can really hear every detail kind of spooky at first. The music now sounds v-e-r-y PURE and homogeneous.
1st I tried the Vishay which was "I can not live with out this status" (but in that test it was in a speaker cross over) I did not keep them in my unit they diminised the soundstage.
I then put in the Mundorfs and perfect soundstage the same as usual, and all the grunge, grain, and hash gone. They are staying in.
Here are the 2 film caps tried:
Vishay MKP-1837 0.1uf 100VAC / 160VDC 1%
Mundorf MKP 2.2uf 250V I know most say it does not matter but I had Parts Connexion match these film caps they charge a dollar per set for the service.
I have now completed the listening of the 5 different caps for phono board use. I would like to mention that I did have to remove the Mundorf bypass caps. Leaving them in had made being able to hear the differences in the caps pretty difficult. As the bypass caps did remove a lot of hash, grain, and grunge they were also slightly compressing the dynamic range and reducing the soundstage dimensionality, which is where the caps on the phono board really differed. And now I am really going to sound like a wack-o but to me it sounds like bypass caps actually slow the music delivery down, say 33 1/3 to 33 rpm (Yes I am nuts,) or to put it another way the music was somewhat being delayed by micro seconds? If any one wants to chime in I am willing to try more bypass caps, the main filter caps are 6800uf 35V. If someone has had “significant” excellent results with a wide range of Marantz units or bypassing in general and has a solid working formula with a certain brand or value I am all ears. I like what it does to background noise but the compression and dimensionality loss are not worth it. I also played all my low level detail passages and I really had to try hard to hear the things I am used to hearing, without the bypass caps all is well.
I would like to preface the above and the results I will write up that this is one mans opinion and some may want to try this themselves to see if they agree or disagree with me. For the power supply board I believe I did all the caps full justice by actually soldering the caps on to the board and listening to them that way. For the phono board I did not think the circuit board traces would hold up to this. I did what I though was the best thing. Also there is less of a huge impact on the phono board so I wanted to be able to shuttle the caps in fairly quickly to compare, I could switch caps out in about a minute. Yes I did have to add leads to the caps to set up this listening rig, but all the caps were equally subjected to this. I could not devise an A-B switch because I am not a technician and do not pretend to be. Also actually for me it was pretty easy to hear what each cap was sounding like with this simple setup , and that is what I liked about it “simplicity.”
Please see 2 pics below of another cap test with waaaay better and more expensive caps used and they also used a terminal strip or a jig.
*******Results to follow.
Tom Smith
Member
Why Caps ???
Pat,
I have read almost every message of this thread and I suppose I have missed what made you persue this adventure.
Could it have been due to the knowledge that the caps are aging and should be replaced? Or maybe an undesireable sound that you hear? :scratch2:
I have a Marantz 4300 that has developed a fuzzyness in the B speakers. It's not a scratchy sound like volume control being dirty noise however it is simular. I also say that because the undesireable noises I hear cannot be associated to turning knobs, pushing buttons or sliding switches. However if I persue this adventure I intend to deox the slides and controls while the unit is open. My recollection of working in a service department MANY years ago is the noise sounds like output transistors going out. BTW, it has only taken about 4 hours of playtime to get here. :tears:
BTW, I enjoyed the fine explainations of the sound from this type of cap to that type. Thanks. :thmbsp:
tls
Pat,
I have read almost every message of this thread and I suppose I have missed what made you persue this adventure.
Could it have been due to the knowledge that the caps are aging and should be replaced? Or maybe an undesireable sound that you hear? :scratch2:
I have a Marantz 4300 that has developed a fuzzyness in the B speakers. It's not a scratchy sound like volume control being dirty noise however it is simular. I also say that because the undesireable noises I hear cannot be associated to turning knobs, pushing buttons or sliding switches. However if I persue this adventure I intend to deox the slides and controls while the unit is open. My recollection of working in a service department MANY years ago is the noise sounds like output transistors going out. BTW, it has only taken about 4 hours of playtime to get here. :tears:
BTW, I enjoyed the fine explainations of the sound from this type of cap to that type. Thanks. :thmbsp:
tls
Hi Tom, thank you for taking the time to read these posts. I did check your thread and I think you stated that the speakers when connected to the "Main" speaker switch sound fine but when you put them on the "B" speakers they act up. I would really clean that "B" switch out and see if there is an improvement.
The reason I am on the quest for a cap shoot-out is because I just did not see anywhere on the internet where anyone has actually tried to sytematically install and listen to the top cap contenders and comment on the sound. What got me curious was when I re-capped the Power Supply board of my other 2220B there was ahuge improvement in sound. So I wanted to try all the caps to see which I liked best and what each sounded like. The electrolytic caps also do dry up after 30+ years so to give your Marantz longevity and nice sound it is the right thing to do.
Tom Smith
Member
Many Thanks
Pat,
So from what else I have read regarding your cap replacements. The chrispness of the delivery to speakers is the responsiblity of the caps.
Gee, I wish that could help out my AR4x speaker set (2-way). I also have a set of Infinity SM-152s (about a 5-way) and they are bright and boomy as they come.
I suppose I could also figure that fuzzyness is not due to caps?
Jstang,
I thank you for the input regarding the pushbutton and relays and deoxing them. I feel pretty sure that deox is conductive and should not be applied while the unit is powered.
I sure hope this is the problem. I really like the vintage Marantz.
This bad boy is in the garage and it CRANKS.
Thanks to all that read and input to the forum.
tls
Pat,
So from what else I have read regarding your cap replacements. The chrispness of the delivery to speakers is the responsiblity of the caps.
Gee, I wish that could help out my AR4x speaker set (2-way). I also have a set of Infinity SM-152s (about a 5-way) and they are bright and boomy as they come.
I suppose I could also figure that fuzzyness is not due to caps?
Jstang,
I thank you for the input regarding the pushbutton and relays and deoxing them. I feel pretty sure that deox is conductive and should not be applied while the unit is powered.
I sure hope this is the problem. I really like the vintage Marantz.
This bad boy is in the garage and it CRANKS.
Thanks to all that read and input to the forum.
tls
We are aware of the limitations of this study; BUT, I ask you,
What can one man do? Where is the Million Dollars for a Scientific Experiment?
Pat has explained why he felt it necessary to use his makeshift 'rig' on the phono board. However, each of the Capacitors in the test will be subjected to the same comparison, in the same rig. No unfair advantages here.
This is not a study in topology or circuit design. We are looking to gain useful insights into the benefits in using the best caps for the job intended.
Personally, I have a strong backround in the sciences and what makes good scientific method. While I don't know anything about Pat's educational backround, he has designed a study, within his time and resource limitations, that I would be proud to present here at AK, where we are all sharing what we know, to our mutual benefit.
Pat has certainly extended my knowledge, and I would suspect, even prompted some of the more experienced among us to reexamine their attitudes toward the restoration of the audio equipment we have come to love.
IMHO.
Jay
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aidynphoenix
Super Member
any concerns with plastic shavings getting inside the relay and causing a problem? :scratch2:
Tom Smith
Member
Very very very small drill bit .... Used this method several times. No issues...only positive results.
Also, to bring this back to caps put a bypass cap on the relay contracts....
Jk
Jstang,
Would this "bypass cap" that you refer to be like a MOV accross the coil?
One would also assume the deoxit will drain from the relay's contacts box without intervention, right?
Aidynphoenix,
And hey, if shavings were a possible issue, place a vacuum near the drill point to suck up the shavings.
tls.
aidynphoenix
Super Member
i was more concerned with shavings falling on the "inside" of the relay once the drill bit makes it through to the inside,
and then the possibility of a a shaving finding its way between the relay contacts.