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Electrolytic Capacitor Shoot-Out

So Pat, aren't there any quality Electrolytic caps, rated @ 105°C, that could be reasonably substituted in those instances where heat is a serious issue? That may not happen all that frequently; but introducing a single higher temp rated cap in those locations, where you know they will routinely get very hot, seems to be a reasonable course of action. Or might a single cap in the wrong location degrade the sound that much, that, in all cases, you'd always go with the sonically superior cap, in spite of the rating? Actually, I guess you already answered that; but surely there must be a 105°C rated cap, besides the Panasonic FC, that we could substitute.
If not...that would seem to indicate that the cap manufacturers feel that the 85°C caps are up to the task. And isn't that the issue we are now considering?
 
Yea but then why are 105's manufactured?

Read the ELNA Silmic II or Nichicon KZ product descriptions. Certain electrolytics are specifically made for HIGH-END AUDIO applications.
Please... there are untold thousands of electronics applications that do NOT fall in to that category.
 
Read the ELNA Silmic II or Nichicon KZ product descriptions. Certain electrolytics are specifically made for HIGH-END AUDIO applications.
Please... there are untold thousands of electronics applications that do NOT fall in to that category.

I read them, I didn't see anything that explained why they are only 85 and not 105.

So I guess for HIGH-END AUDIO, you need lower heat spec caps.

Puzzling.
 
So Pat, aren't there any quality Electrolytic caps, rated @ 105°C, that could be reasonably substituted in those instances where heat is a serious issue?

Panasonic FC. :D

I've been using them for a long time, based on the recommendation of respected techs on this board.
 
105 degree caps are typically rated for greater lifespans and higher reliability than 85 degree types. 95% of the electrolytics I use are 105 degree, low-ESR Nichicon. The rest would be film, boutique, or large cans rated at 85 degrees.
 
105 degree caps are typically rated for greater lifespans and higher reliability than 85 degree types. 95% of the electrolytics I use are 105 degree, low-ESR Nichicon. The rest would be film, boutique, or large cans rated at 85 degrees.

I don't know how many will choose to try the Silmic II.
Clearly not all areas of an amp or receiver are subjected to extreme heat all the time, particularly in the signal path, or all audio electrolytics would be designed and rated @ 105°C.
Anybody ever hear of Nelson Pass? Anybody think that he may know a thing or two about audio caps, what works and what sounds good?
Guess which electrolytic caps he prefers to use in his amps...today.

But, pray tell, tarior,
Which low-ESR Nichicon electrolytics have you found success with in your Audio restorations, and in what locations did you find them advantageous?
Cap make AND MODEL please.

As mentioned, where they may be available in the required values, film and foil caps may even be preferred. I have yet to hear a specific suggestion, though, for a specific application.
Is there an EE in the house, please?
 
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I use Nichicon PM, PW, PS and HE for low ESR, high temp (long life) caps, Nichicon KLs for low leakage and ES for non-polar. Every once in awhile I'll use some KWs, KTs, FGs, or Blackgates (mostly 'cause they have cool looking wrappers and look like they should sound better) in a signal path, but damn if I or anyone else I've met can tell the difference. The high temp caps are going to last longer than 85 degree caps no matter where they are used in the circuit, all else being equal. That's the number one reason I use them.
 
How many caps are really subjected to the temps that they are rated for? What's 85C, around 180F? I'd be surprised if even the hottest of power supplies reaches 140F. Time to pull out an infrared thermometer. :D
 
I use Nichicon PM, PW, PS and HE for low ESR, high temp (long life) caps, Nichicon KLs for low leakage and ES for non-polar. Every once in awhile I'll use some KWs, KTs, FGs, or Blackgates (mostly 'cause they have cool looking wrappers and look like they should sound better) in a signal path, but damn if I or anyone else I've met can tell the difference. The high temp caps are going to last longer than 85 degree caps no matter where they are used in the circuit, all else being equal. That's the number one reason I use them.

Can't understand why. Your associated equipment, particularly the DQ-10s should allow you to hear better definition in the bass, and depending on your age improved detail in the upper-mids and high frequencies. Nothing?
 
Can't understand why. Your associated equipment, particularly the DQ-10s should allow you to hear better definition in the bass, and depending on your age improved detail in the upper-mids and high frequencies. Nothing?

My JBL L-212s blow the DQs out of the water in every aspect, but no, I can't tell the difference in the caps used in my electronics. Crossover caps? Maybe.
 
No doubt, longevity is a desired goal, especially for a customer's relatively low-end receiver; but if your preferences run toward the higher end equipment, for personal consumption, isnt the best sound the dafault goal, and yes consistent with acceptable longevity?
 
I don't get it. Back in the 70s, I could walk into my store and immediately know what was playing. O.K. maybe not 100%, but you catch my drift. I'm not claiming to have any golden ear either. We played this game in the store when it wasn't busy. Most of the salesmen could tell the difference after only a couple weeks. I guess, if you're looking for, and expect a difference, you might hear it. Beyond that I just don't get it.
As you mentioned, there was apparently no trouble hearing the difference between the Dahlquists and the JBL. True, amps aren't SUPPOSED to sound different, but they do. Granted, not as much as speakers, not by a long shot.
 
More very good readings on the affects of Dielectric materials on sound. Again older info, but physics have not changed in the many years since the birth of time.... :D

http://greygum.net/sbench/sbench102/caps.html

http://greygum.net/sbench/sbench102/caps2.html

This one put the nail in the coffin for Tantalums....

http://greygum.net/sbench/sbench102/caps1.html

Mainly what you see in the scope traces of the electrolytics is the affects of DA - Dielectric Absorption.

They have the Hysteresis affect on the audio signal. If I ever manage to find some time, I will run a similar test on the Silmics.... My bet is the results would be very positive for the audio characteristics.

Think of the type and number of caps in the signal path the 7C pre-amp.... and you start to understand some of Saul's secretes....

jk

Let me guess...
The fewer caps the better, avoiding as much DA as possible.
Which is primarily why Tantalums are so bad (not to mention the way they blow-up sometimes when they go...) Worst DA of all caps (most distortion).
As I understand it, this issue with DA is precisely why ELNA chose to use silk in their electrolytics. Lower DA = Less distortion.
As film and foil caps have even significantly lower DA still, they can have a positive effect when added in the signal path where required values may be available. Unfortunately, not that often, I would suspect.
 
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How many caps are really subjected to the temps that they are rated for? What's 85C, around 180F? I'd be surprised if even the hottest of power supplies reaches 140F. Time to pull out an infrared thermometer. :D

Yes 85C is 185 degrees, my receiver really does not even get warm after hours of use. I would love for some one to just use the infrared on some P/S caps and report back.

Now on the other hand when I had my Audio Research D76A with Tube regulated power supply that thing cooked, on a hot day in the summer it would make the room uncomfotably warm.

Some tube amp upgrades I was reading about.


C6 and C7 are the filter capacitors for the negative voltage bias supply. Use a good quality electrolytic capacitors here. Since these capacitors get hot because they are close to the rectifier tube capacitors rated for 105 degrees C operation are a good upgrade here especially in poorly ventilated cabinets. You could also use an external film or PIO cap in parallel with C7 but I have not found a big improvement in doing so.

We are talking about a Marantz receiver, the above would be for a Tube Amp, 85C is fine for me, I am not worried about it at all, YMMV.
 
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Where a critical cap may sit next to a very hot resister, for example, or other HOT component, I guess the two components could be physically 'separated'.
One could use the full length of the leads on the Electrolytic, using shrink-wrap on the leads, to create adequate distance from the 'HOT' component, by suspending the cap off the board , and away from the source of the Heat. O.K., not a visibly elegant solution, but one which would allow the use of the best sounding electrolytic caps in a compromised location on the board. Where needed, a heat shield could be created. Lets face it, there are likely receivers, where things are packed so tightly that compromises are inevitable. Like the 2500 or 2600. IMHO, that's what separate components are for.
...never the less, a work-around, with a net sonic benefit is possible if one is willing to be creative.
Yes, No???
 
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Stellar thread, Pat. I read all 9 pages in one sitting. Although a relative noob to the home electronics area, I've been working in several automotive development fields for 20+ years, and it's rare to find someone who gives proper attention to procedure from start to finish where R&D and testing is concerned. You obviously have the 'ear', and your descriptions of all the various characteristics and subtleties made me crack a smile more than once. It's always impressive to me when someone uses their gifts to the best of their ability, and has the talent to put specialized procedures and concepts into layman's terms most of us less-initiated can understand clearly. Although in a totally different field, what I was doing involved very subtle and detailed changes trying to get the last ounce of benefit. Do a baseline test. Make 1 change, Re-test. If it shows improvement, go to the next step. Re-test again. repeat until you've gone as far as you can. Then try different theories, parts, tactics and tests...all the while documenting the results. Think flowchart. You will backslide, make mistakes, break things, spend money. But that's what R&D is all about. For every 1 step forward in progress you'll make other steps backwards. It's not all about knowing what works, but what doesn't work, as well.
Granted, this is only one model of one brand you tested on, and while others have valid points about possible different results on other equipment, I give you a textified version of a standing O for your efforts. Others who took issue with your methods or choices probably have valid points as well, but this is your test on your equipment done the way you choose and to your satisfaction. That's all that matters in the end, right? I learned a lot from this, and there is a bookshelf in the other room loaded with tired equipment waiting for attention. I'm subscribed to this post now, and plan to re-read the crap out of it in the future. I may even consider posting something similar when I finally learn enough to make sense. Hopefully it will be as useful to fellow noobs as this one was to me. Thanks!

Thank you very much for the kind words. I will be trying Silmic II, and Cerafines in the phono board shortly. I also want to include the Nichicon ES on the phono board, I could not use them in the power supply and get a good feel from them there as I could only get 3 of the values I needed.
 
Reading this thread with great interest as I mull over investing in a full restoration of the 1300DC I picked up recently. I'd have to pay a qualified person to do the work, but it might be worth it for that amp. I wonder if Silmic IIs would improve the sonics of this newer design?

I think patfont is taking a scientific approach to the degree that is practical for him. There is a defensible control unit for comparison and he appears to be making a genuine effort to report findings objectively.

Within the limitations of the "study" (e.g. only one listener, question of how far to generalize findings beyond this model of receiver) I appreciate the information!
 
Pat's 2220B was mfg between 1974-77; while your 1300DC was mfg in 1978-79.
Nice integrated, by the way! And certainly worth a careful refurb.
I see no reason at all why better caps won't be just as beneficial to the sonic capabilities of your 1300DC as Pat's 2220B or my 500.
Lower DA (Dielectric Absorbtion) and thereby lower distortion, by the caps, will benefit virtually any amp or preamp of this sort...new, old, Marantz or non-Marantz. I asked this question early on just to see what others would say. Don't ask me why, but I never got a response.
For what it's worth, and IMHO, ...if you like a 'tube like' (smother highend), go for the ELNA Silmic II. If you like a very crisp, and extended and detailed high-end, you might prefer the ELNA Cerafine caps. If you want solid performance across the full range, with a more 'neutral' effect on the frequency spectrum, then the Nichicon KZ may be your personal "Hot ticket", if I am reading things correctly.
Don't be afraid to tell your tech what you're looking for when it comes time to refurbish your 'Baby', the Marantz 1300DC
Jay
 
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