They are, but used as signal path devices, they are seldom close to heat sources, or exposed to large currents to cause self-heating.
Electrolytic Capacitor Shoot-Out
- Thread starter patfont
- Start date
You know, I don't think Pat is going to disagree with anything you've said.
You have mentioned just a few situations where a departure from the ideal situation may cause you to alter your component selection. Given your experience over the years, and given the vagaries of parts availability, I imagine you could list many other instances where you've had to be creative to get the job done.
Pat is just sharing what he has been able to observe regarding the impact of several highly regarded caps on the resulting sound of even a relatively modest Marantz receiver. Rather than just give an opinion, he has taken a systematic approach that we could all understand. Many may qusetion his golden ear. Of course. However Pat never claimed to have a golden ear; but he demonstrates an ability to describe what he's heard, much in the manner of some of the most respected high-end audio publications. Makes sense. Many of us probably read some of those very same magazines.
I'd guess even Pat, from time to time, has had to depart from the ideal parts choice to get the job done. In fact, in this very thread, Pat had to substitute a Nichicon FG for a KZ because the KZ was not available in the required size.
In the end, it sounds like you guys are PRETTY MUCH on the same page.
Clearly, many have found this debate interesting. Certainly, I have.
I hope sometime in the near future we may similarly consider when, how, and to what benefit to use bypass caps in a circuit, or to substitute film caps where space on the board is an issue. These are all valuable concepts that many inexperienced tech wanabees may find helpful.
Then we'll repair yet another 2230. Isn't this an interesting change of pace?
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ChrisMarantz
Super Member
For myself the problem with this is that "best" is once again a subjective opinion. Original, correct and proper performance is easier to quantify and is straight forward to achieve.
If someone has the desire to modify their older all original unit, perhaps they should restore it to its original specifications and then give it a good and fair listen to see how it really sounds.
After that, if they want to bolt on a cross-flow head with a pair of Webers and go racing, more power to them.
As with the 'most' beautiful woman, the best sounding audio system is always a subjective judgement...one that can only, and most appropriately, be made by the individual.
Unlike racing. We all understand WIN, PLACE and SHOW.
But then, in a situation where the 'original' caps are no longer available, or are known to have been a reliability problem (tantalums for example), is replacing a defective 'original' cap with another cap of the same values a modification? If so, I'm all for it.
Do you think Marantz looked to save money in the manufacturing process as receivers evolved?
Why not inclued bypass caps in the original circuits? Why use the tantalums?
Why the Marantz 510M instead of the Marantz 500?
Marantz knew how to build a better amp. In the real world, though, there is competition, and the desire to be profitable. Compromises are an inevitable result of competition in the market place. Sometimes we have the ability to compensate for some of those compromises. Thankfully, we have the benefit of shared experience and a knowledge base, making it unnecessary to start from scratch each time we decide to 'restore' a piece of audio equipment.
We have AK.
Why the Power Supply Caps
I wanted to keep this simple in such a way where I could recap a board and listen for myself as to which caps I would like. I took what I though were the popular contenders and placed my order. Why did I choose the power supply board as my test bed? On my first 2220B I did the phono board first, and heard just a slight improvement. In fact I really had to take a close listen to even come to that conclusion. Next I did the power supply board-Wow –you could hear the improvement right away. Well maybe the caps there were tired? So on to the power and pre board and same as the phono but a wee bit more noticeable on each, and as a whole a very big improvement. So then I get my 1070 from XYZ Marantz famous rebuilder, and it sounds thin and the high end sounds etched, low bass is weak. Ok so I do the phono to try and improve it, and it sounds just a bit better, then I pulled out “the new” just installed Chemi Cons on the Power Supply Board and put in the Silmics-Bingo and dramatic, all is well now. So this told me that even in a “professionally “ restored unit with all new caps in the Power Supply Board was yielding big improvements compared to the other boards. To me it made the most sense to do it this way. I will be moving on to the phono board next with the Silmics and Cerafine.
I wanted to keep this simple in such a way where I could recap a board and listen for myself as to which caps I would like. I took what I though were the popular contenders and placed my order. Why did I choose the power supply board as my test bed? On my first 2220B I did the phono board first, and heard just a slight improvement. In fact I really had to take a close listen to even come to that conclusion. Next I did the power supply board-Wow –you could hear the improvement right away. Well maybe the caps there were tired? So on to the power and pre board and same as the phono but a wee bit more noticeable on each, and as a whole a very big improvement. So then I get my 1070 from XYZ Marantz famous rebuilder, and it sounds thin and the high end sounds etched, low bass is weak. Ok so I do the phono to try and improve it, and it sounds just a bit better, then I pulled out “the new” just installed Chemi Cons on the Power Supply Board and put in the Silmics-Bingo and dramatic, all is well now. So this told me that even in a “professionally “ restored unit with all new caps in the Power Supply Board was yielding big improvements compared to the other boards. To me it made the most sense to do it this way. I will be moving on to the phono board next with the Silmics and Cerafine.
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I appreciate you sharing this with us, we can learn a lot here from your experience. I also would be more interested in using a film to bypass a Nichicon ES on the spots requiring a small value. And would like to learn the ins and outs of it and knowing what value films to use.
I would be very interested in knowing your choice here and what made you decide on your choice.
Well, to tell you the truth, a friend of mine, who we all know from AK, has been 'hot rodding' a couple amps for me since April. We're in no rush. Its a labour of love.
To answer your question though, the ELNA Silmic II caps were purchased long before this thread was started. We're talking about a Marantz 500 and 510M. We're doing bypass caps (films), the works...
ELNA Silmic II are also going in the Model 19.
I have a few pieces I'll tackle myself when I find the time, but I manage client portfilios, and the Markets have been keeping me busy lately...go figure.
I plan to refurb a 2245, 2270, 2250, 2275, 3300, 120, 125, 150, 250, another 510 and a couple Mac and Accuphase pieces, for starters. I may do a couple 2245 differently, just to see the difference over the long run. Time will tell the story, in my opinion, better than a quick listen. Not practical in this comparison, though.
In the meantime, I'm very happy to have an EE 'hot rod' my favorite amps and the 7T preamp I plan to put in my main system. After you confirmed our considered individual opinions, I'm very happy we chose the Silmic II as our caps of choice.
That doesn't mean that in some special situations we won't find an alternate cap to have an advantage. In audio, as in life and investing, there are always special situations. Anyone who has used a computer much knows the meaning of a 'work-around'. Sometimes that may also apply to the choice of caps.
Regarding the why...I appreciate detail in the bass. I also prefer the upper-mids and high frequencies to sound somewhat 'tube like'. I do not want to push the highs forward as the Cerafines may. The Cerafine and Nichicon KZ also sound like fine caps, and may find application in pieces where their individual characheristics may be beneficial, at least to my individual tastes. I think I may use the Nichicon KZ in a couple tuners, and the Cerafines will likely find their way into a Model 250 sometime down the road. This is my favorite mid-sized amp, so I'll experiment with my 250s.
To answer your question though, the ELNA Silmic II caps were purchased long before this thread was started. We're talking about a Marantz 500 and 510M. We're doing bypass caps (films), the works...
ELNA Silmic II are also going in the Model 19.
I have a few pieces I'll tackle myself when I find the time, but I manage client portfilios, and the Markets have been keeping me busy lately...go figure.
I plan to refurb a 2245, 2270, 2250, 2275, 3300, 120, 125, 150, 250, another 510 and a couple Mac and Accuphase pieces, for starters. I may do a couple 2245 differently, just to see the difference over the long run. Time will tell the story, in my opinion, better than a quick listen. Not practical in this comparison, though.
In the meantime, I'm very happy to have an EE 'hot rod' my favorite amps and the 7T preamp I plan to put in my main system. After you confirmed our considered individual opinions, I'm very happy we chose the Silmic II as our caps of choice.
That doesn't mean that in some special situations we won't find an alternate cap to have an advantage. In audio, as in life and investing, there are always special situations. Anyone who has used a computer much knows the meaning of a 'work-around'. Sometimes that may also apply to the choice of caps.
Regarding the why...I appreciate detail in the bass. I also prefer the upper-mids and high frequencies to sound somewhat 'tube like'. I do not want to push the highs forward as the Cerafines may. The Cerafine and Nichicon KZ also sound like fine caps, and may find application in pieces where their individual characheristics may be beneficial, at least to my individual tastes. I think I may use the Nichicon KZ in a couple tuners, and the Cerafines will likely find their way into a Model 250 sometime down the road. This is my favorite mid-sized amp, so I'll experiment with my 250s.
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Jailtime
Standin' on a corner
She's in my avatar.
500s gonna smoke a 510, at least in power output into 8 and 4 ohms.
She's in my avatar.
500s gonna smoke a 510, at least in power output into 8 and 4 ohms.
The 500 was already great before we started, except the meters weren't working. Turned out to be a simple diode issue. But, as long as we were inside, Jstang had a few tricks up his sleeve. Of course, the electrolytics are being replaced as well. Yes, with ELNA Silmic II.
She'll be a monster now...and it was already the best amp I've ever heard. It had apparently been used for playback in a recording studio. Transistors had already been updated with quality replacements.
I'm getting a bit anxious to have her back, but not until we get the best out of her, especially since we're replacing the electrolytics with the ELNA Silmic II.
As for your avatar...she's a beauty!
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Since the cap will probably have to be soldered to the back of the board, physical size is an issue. For that reason, I commonly use a 0.47µf 50V or 63V Panasonic stacked film. Anything electrically larger doesn't seem to provide much additional benefit. All we're looking to do is provide a low impedance path for the highest octaves, so the exact value isn't critical.
The heat issue in the Power Supply of many crowded receivers and amps has my attention. 85°C seems like a fairly high tolerence, but my experience is limited at best.
So then, what are the likely best sounding caps rated at 105°C?
For those with experience in this area, which caps, rated @ 105°C are candidates, where best sonic performance is a primary consideration of the customer, consistent with longevity?
Would a tech likely disclose this trade off and ask the customer's desires when the compromise is being made?
Seems to me a few questions about the associated equipment to be used in the system with the unit to be repaired would be in order. If the equipment is sub par, the default would be to the 105°C rated cap, as the sonic difference may go unnoticed once the repair is made.
But, in a 'high-end' system, shouldn't the customer have some say in that decision?
I appreciate that, in the real world, this may complicate the efficiency of completing the job; but if we understand the customer's preferences...
yada, yada, yada.
In the end, isn't it about a satisfied customer?
So, are there any 'good' sounding 105°C rated caps???
IMHO and YMMV but the 85's I pulled from my 2220B have been in there for 30+ years I would go best sounding cap, and I am sure you will be doing well for a long period of time. All I used Cerafine, Silmic, KZ and FG are 85's the FC's are 105's and that is why people like them. To me it is not even close. If you have to replace in 10 years there may be something better that has come along.
You don't happen to have a pictue of something like that sitting in your hard drive somewhere, showing how the instalation of the above looks.
Yah, assuming one can solder in a cap without destroying the foil traces or burn through the circiut board...no problem.
On the other hand, for a tech who wants his work to be reliable, in certain cases, there might be a problem. So then, we work around the problem.
Otherwise we plan to use the best sounding cap.
Works for me.
The ELNA Silmic II just went into my 510M...along with some foil by-pass caps...different caps for different strokes.
...or is it, 'Different strokes for different folks'?
In the end, isn't it just, 'Whatever works'...best?
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Dan D.
Active Member
Stellar thread, Pat. I read all 9 pages in one sitting. Although a relative noob to the home electronics area, I've been working in several automotive development fields for 20+ years, and it's rare to find someone who gives proper attention to procedure from start to finish where R&D and testing is concerned. You obviously have the 'ear', and your descriptions of all the various characteristics and subtleties made me crack a smile more than once. It's always impressive to me when someone uses their gifts to the best of their ability, and has the talent to put specialized procedures and concepts into layman's terms most of us less-initiated can understand clearly. Although in a totally different field, what I was doing involved very subtle and detailed changes trying to get the last ounce of benefit. Do a baseline test. Make 1 change, Re-test. If it shows improvement, go to the next step. Re-test again. repeat until you've gone as far as you can. Then try different theories, parts, tactics and tests...all the while documenting the results. Think flowchart. You will backslide, make mistakes, break things, spend money. But that's what R&D is all about. For every 1 step forward in progress you'll make other steps backwards. It's not all about knowing what works, but what doesn't work, as well.
Granted, this is only one model of one brand you tested on, and while others have valid points about possible different results on other equipment, I give you a textified version of a standing O for your efforts. Others who took issue with your methods or choices probably have valid points as well, but this is your test on your equipment done the way you choose and to your satisfaction. That's all that matters in the end, right? I learned a lot from this, and there is a bookshelf in the other room loaded with tired equipment waiting for attention. I'm subscribed to this post now, and plan to re-read the crap out of it in the future. I may even consider posting something similar when I finally learn enough to make sense. Hopefully it will be as useful to fellow noobs as this one was to me. Thanks!
Granted, this is only one model of one brand you tested on, and while others have valid points about possible different results on other equipment, I give you a textified version of a standing O for your efforts. Others who took issue with your methods or choices probably have valid points as well, but this is your test on your equipment done the way you choose and to your satisfaction. That's all that matters in the end, right? I learned a lot from this, and there is a bookshelf in the other room loaded with tired equipment waiting for attention. I'm subscribed to this post now, and plan to re-read the crap out of it in the future. I may even consider posting something similar when I finally learn enough to make sense. Hopefully it will be as useful to fellow noobs as this one was to me. Thanks!
Jailtime
Standin' on a corner
I wouldn't count on too many improvements in radial caps in 10 years. You will more than likely see a decrease in availability of radial caps.
I think you are right here the field has shrunk pretty much already. Wonder if I should start hording some caps before they go the way of the 'Black Gates."
That crazy dude that flew his kite with the key dangling from it. He did not discover electricity I did! (Quote from "The Water Boy.")
From the most historic square mile in the whole US of A in "Old City" PA.
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