Electrolytic Capacitor Shoot-Out

[patfont]

Nichicon KZ/FG results

Nichicon KZ/FG


The Nichicon have the neutrality of the Panasonic FC’s but none of their problems. They sound very clean and accurate with just a small lower mid scoop. It may be heard with male vocals and they sit back just a bit in the mix. The vocals have nice body but just slightly to the thin side not a deal breaker at all. A very high quality and lovely sounding cap. The low end is clean and detailed and pretty much pulling off “Abandoned and Pursued” from the ET sound track. Unlike the FC’s the Nichicon are not 2D sounding but do give a sense of sound stage and dept of field. If you really like Panasonic FC’s I would think you would be much happier with the Nichicons.

At this writing I have the final caps that I have chosen running in the receiver.
I felt like a politician flip flopping during my decision I was torn between 2 caps. I went with my choice and started playing music again, as I listened the Sirens were calling me (the other caps) I removed the caps that I had put in and replaced them with the others that I could not get out of my head. And they are happily playing along. I am also happy that my Power Supply Board stood up to 6 different cap changes, with out any problems. I will try to get my final conclusion and summery up ASAP, and also maybe system types that each cap would work well with. Please stay tuned.

 

[aidynphoenix]

 

[PB_Audio]

Great work Pat. I love your approach.
Very valuable comparison.
Thank you,
Jay

I'd like to see this thread become a STICKY. Any seconds???

 

[jfine]

I guess it's possible that electrolytic's do not require or change sonics from burn-in time, but I have heard for myself Metallized Polypropylene caps change, and it wasn't all in a few hours. But that was me and I could be the only one ever to hear changes like that.

It seems all the electrolytic's tried here did change the sound, but, I can't help but think how much subjective time did they get, and how long was signal being applied before the next change?

 

[patfont]

I guess it's possible that electrolytic's do not require or change sonics from burn-in time, but I have heard for myself Metallized Polypropylene caps change, and it wasn't all in a few hours. But that was me and I could be the only one ever to hear changes like that.

It seems all the electrolytic's tried here did change the sound, but, I can't help but think how much subjective time did they get, and how long was signal being applied before the next change?

FYI all caps installed were left either playing FM all day as I was working or sometimes just FM static (annoying.) The test was not really done in real time as you would see it from the posts here. For instance I would usually post results when the next set of caps had been installed and playing. To be honest you can get a pretty good grip on the sound of the installed caps immediately. Handmade Electronics does have posted with the Silmics that 100 hours of break in are required. They actually smooth out a bit after 2-8 hours and after that not much more. Each set of caps got at least 50 hours in the unit. I do have them in my other 2020B and they have been in there for quite some time.

So I should also add why no fancy A-B test or all caps installed on an outboard circuit board, so they could be switched quickly. I had managed a hi-end store for 5 years, and it was my job to listen critically and evaluate new and present equipment. I had to show customers why they should pay more for a better amp by demo of a song where they could hear the difference from one amp to the next. The recordings I used I have been playing and or have used for demo and know them intimately (probably have listened to for 25 years or more) and exactly how they should sound. I take extensive notes when listening and have a vivid musical memory. And it is fairly easy the caps either do or they do not. For example the caps can either play the low notes in "Abandoned and Pursued" or I note how they handled it, and how was the pitch and how was the detail definition and control. I have also been used as a guinea pig while working at the store. I was asked by xyz speaker manufacturer to listen to a cross over change in one of their speakers. They had two versions and wanted my opinion. I liked the 1st mod, and they agreed and that one was produced. I also have heard some pretty decent equipment and know and have heard what these recordings can sound like at their best, check my public profile for equipment owned. IMHO this was the best way to do it, real caps functioning live in a Marantz Power Supply where the greatest sound difference can be heard when replacing caps. Some may not agree with my methodology and I am ok with that and other opinions. Basically this is all we have, there is no where else that I have seen on the internet where someone actually did what I am doing. Of course you can read well this cap sounds Black Gate-ish, and this cap has a nice high end or is smooth. What I have been able to do from internet research is figure out what caps to include in this test.

 

[Jerwardemy]

I have a 2270 that I recapped with FCs in the PS and SILMIKS everywhere else. The first thing I replaced was the filter caps to 10,000uf Nichicon Gold Tune, and this made a huge difference. But after recapping, I have had the feeling that it doesn't sound as good as when i just changed the filters and left the stock caps everywhere else. The blacks did get a lil blacker and the sound did smooth out a little, but it did seem thinner and had less of 3d sound. After reading this thread I ordered some SILMIKs for my PS. Sounds like the FCs could have been my problem all along.

 

[jfine]

Not to thread drift too much, but I think my 2325 has 2) 220/63 on the P800.

Elna has 220/50 & 220/100. Can I use either of those or must I find the correct V?

 

[avionic]

Not to thread drift too much, but I think my 2325 has 2) 220/63 on the P800.

Elna has 220/50 & 220/100. Can I use either of those or must I find the correct V?

Use the 100v.Can always go up in voltage never go down as a general rule.

 

[Sir.Byrd]

Not to thread drift too much, but I think my 2325 has 2) 220/63 on the P800.

Elna has 220/50 & 220/100. Can I use either of those or must I find the correct V?

Make sure they will not be too large for the spot. I found that Silmic II were about the same size as the vintage caps for the given value, so you might not be able to fit that 100V cap in. Try Nichicon KZ for that value, or Elna Cerafine.

 

[PB_Audio]

I have a 2270 that I recapped with FCs in the PS and SILMIKS everywhere else. The first thing I replaced was the filter caps to 10,000uf Nichicon Gold Tune, and this made a huge difference. But after recapping, I have had the feeling that it doesn't sound as good as when i just changed the filters and left the stock caps everywhere else. The blacks did get a lil blacker and the sound did smooth out a little, but it did seem thinner and had less of 3d sound. After reading this thread I ordered some SILMIKs for my PS. Sounds like the FCs could have been my problem all along.

Sounds like a plan. Please let us know your impression once you burn in those new ELNA Silmic II caps in the power supply.

Also, others who make a similar change based on Pat's research,
please confirm your impressions.
There are always skeptics who will only be convinced by the weight of the evidence...understandable.
Let's provide that evidence.
I truely believe that Pat has performed an invaluable service to us all.

 

[EchoWars]

After reading this thread I ordered some SILMIKs for my PS. Sounds like the FCs could have been my problem all along.

Pretty damned unlikely.

I can appreciate the effort that has gone into patfont's comparison, but in the end what we have is one man's opinion. I've stayed out of this in deference to the OP, but if guys are going to start ripping out perfectly good caps in order to 'fix' some perceived shortcoming, then it's time to interject a bit of sanity.

 

[patfont]

Pretty damned unlikely.

I can appreciate the effort that has gone into patfont's comparison, but in the end what we have is one man's opinion. I've stayed out of this in deference to the OP, but if guys are going to start ripping out perfectly good caps in order to 'fix' some perceived shortcoming, then it's time to interject a bit of sanity.

This is from post #18 to address the above:

Shortcomings:

1. 2D sound, not much of a sound stage here
2. Extreme low end is rolled off
3. Extreme highs are recessed
4. Vocals are thin sounding and do not have much body

The above shortcomings may be meaningless to 90% of the people. If you want to restore your Marantz to like new condition and get back your frequency extremes and smoothness by all means I really enjoyed these. If you are using your Marantz with vintage speakers and regular speaker wire and a mid-fi cartridge the above shortcomings will probably not matter, but you will hear that your frequency extremes have been restored.

So I may be getting away from the spirit of this forum, which is restoration of the Marantz units, but I am looking for a little more here. For the 10% that have a modern speaker that images well and is at a minimum -3db down at 43hz, has Kimber 4TC or Speltz Anti-Cables or better and a nice cartridge you will hear what I did, see below. I am trying for a small taste of the high-end sound here.

To quote from the Movie the Matrix: Remember: all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more. ...

 

[EchoWars]

All you are offering is your own opinion. Nothing more...

 

[patfont]

All you are offering is your own opinion. Nothing more...

Sir, I have nothing but 100% respect for you, I know you have helped many people here since 2002. I am trying to contibute to this forum in a way that would be helpful, and this is not something that has been tried before. I am not preaching the pulling of FC's from equipment with coming up on 3000 views there will be a small percentage of peolpe that would like to try. Lets see what the results show. I will try to put up my conclusions tonight or tommorrow morning. There will be those who may not agree with what is going on in this post and I am ok with that, but to some it will be valuable. Who knows if you try yourself you may be surprised, if not that is fine also. I do not want to get into a debate like all speaker wire sounds alike and all Caps sound alike, etc especially with some one of your longevity in the forum and who is protecting the forum, thank you for even reading my posts.

 

[PB_Audio]

All you are offering is your own opinion. Nothing more...

Sometimes an experienced opinion is worth a lot more than the limitations of 'scientific' measurement, particularly at the extremes of performance.
Pat is talking about getting the most from our equipment, a considerably higher goal than just acceptably, reliable performance.
In the end, this is no more than the old debate between the 'Audio Critic' magazine and the 'Absolute Sound' approach.
Pat is clearly a proponent of the 'Absolute Sound' phylosophy, as am I.
It is frequently difficult to distinguish a good sounding piece of audio equipment from a supurb sounding piece with instruments alone. On the other hand, for those who have made it a life's pursuit to listen critically, these differences may frequently be obvious.
But, I will grant you, this is a frivolous debate.
In fact there is a fairly simple answer. Try some ELAN Silmic II caps, in the power supply of a receiver you are very familiar with, next time you have the opportunity.
While a change in mindset may be difficult, it is sometimes worth the effort.
No pain, no gain.
...or, is the world flat?
I, personally, feel Pat has gone above and beyond to, at a minimum, show us an area that deserve further investigation, IMHO!
Jay

 

[patfont]

Sometimes an experienced opinion is worth a lot more than the limitations of 'scientific' measurement, particularly at the extremes of performance.
Pat is talking about getting the most from our equipment, a considerably higher goal than just acceptably, reliable performance.
In the end, this is no more than the old debate between the 'Audio Critic' magazine and the 'Absolute Sound' approach.
Pat is clearly a proponent of the 'Absolute Sound' phylosophy, as am I.
It is frequently difficult to distinguish a good sounding piece of audio equipment from a supurb sounding piece with instruments alone. On the other hand, for those who have made it a life's pursuit to listening critically, these differences may frequently be obvious.
But, I will grant you, this is a frivolous debate.
In fact there is a fairly simple answer. Try some ELAN Silmic II caps, in the power supply of a receiver you are very familiar with, next time you have the opportunity.
While a change in mindset may be difficult, it is sometimes worth the effort.
No pain, no gain.
...or, is the world flat?
I, personally, feel Pat has gone above and beyond to, at a minimum, show us an area that deserve further investigation, IMHO!

Thank you for your support, I have put quite a bit of time into this and after going from the FC's to the second set of caps the Silmics if I did not hear at least a huge improvement, I would have just canned this whole thing. So stay tuned trying to get the results up and running as we speak. I was hoping this could be used as a guide for those of you changing caps so you would get a little insight of what they may sound like and what to expect. It takes me all of 25 minutes and under $20 to pull caps, replace and check settings. Easy to try for those in doubt.

 

[EchoWars]

You're changing caps out in a single piece of gear, and extrapolating that that change is not only valid for every piece of gear, but valid for all ears as well. That's what I have a problem with.

Other than that, knock yourself out.

 

[catrafter]

You're changing caps out in a single piece of gear, and extrapolating that that change is not only valid for every piece of gear, but valid for all ears as well. That's what I have a problem with.

Other than that, knock yourself out.

I'm in agreement with Glenn on this. Experimentation can be a lot of fun and Pat has done some interesting comparisons, but without application of the scientific method including a control group to keep things honest, it comes down to a matter of opinion.

If you want to experiment with your own gear, that's OK with me, you only have to please yourself.

Tom

 

[PB_Audio]

Well, I for one an anxious to hear how the Marantz 2220B sounds with the Nichicon KZ caps installed in the P/S.
If I'm not mistaken, or, I should say, from various rumblings in the last couple years, the Nichicon were the 'Hit ticket'.
It appears as though initial impressions put the Nichicon KZ ahead of the Panasonic FC in Pat's listening sessions.
Given the vagaries of individual taste, and interactions with associated equipment, fine tuning with a combination of Silmic II, Cerafine and Nichicon KZ may become the more interesting question.
I'm sitting on the edge of my seat.

 

[PB_Audio]

Pat, one thing you might do, before giving us your final conclusions, is disclose the associated equipment in the 2220B system you observed: speakers and cables, turntable and cartridge, as well a quick comment concerning the room acoustics.

Regarding scientific method,
I think it would be safe to say, that after years of interest in music and the equipment that brings it into our homes, AND considerable reading of this forum and other online sources, AND likely magazines, even books, Pat came up with a thought regarding the restoration of this audio equipment.
He considered that different caps may make a difference in the sound of a restored receiver.
His hypothesized that 'better' caps may sound better in a Marantz 2220B, a receiver with which he was very familiar, in fact, one that he currently owns, AND has refurbished, including a recap.
Based on his experience with numerous similar recaps, he formulated a THEORY, that selectively replacing caps by different quality manufacturers may yield a variety of sonic results.
The 'Null Hypothesis' was that there would, in fact, be no decernable sonic difference.
Pat 'CONTROLLED' the results, by changing the caps on the very same circuit board, and additionally by having another similarly refurbished Marantz 2220B as a secondary control.
His measuring device was his own trained ear, as described, by his past experience in the business of selling Audio Equipment, for years.
He listened in the very same controlled environment to each set of caps, listening to the same musical source material, with which he was very familiar, dating back decades.
He gave a similar listen to each set of caps using the same music, and recorded his findings.
From this he was able to conclued that the 'Null Hypothesis' was 'FALSE'.
There was, in fact, a clear sonic difference that could only be attributed to the systematic replacement of the several groupings of Electrolytic Caps into the very same circuit, in the very same 2220B receiver.
Finally, he will communicate his results.

As to the inadequacy of the listening sample. Well, we are all just one individual, no more, no less. Pat forgot to invite us all to his house for the week. This was a glaring oversight, no doubt.
Pat, what were you thinking?
However, if I'm not mistaked, we were invited to replicate the experiment for ourselves.
I repeat that invitation.
Does that sound like 'Scientific Method'? ... even if limited by the size of the sample?
Pardon me for taking this seriously. I believe this is important work, consistent with the furtherance of our collective knowledge. No small feat.
Jay