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Equalizer connection question

Re-read post number 7.

EchoWars is exactly spot on.

To put it another way, the signal from the preamp output is so small that it can not cover up the noise generated by the equalizer.

Just like if you have a background noise at your listening position. You need enough audio level to cover up the noise.

The signal level at the tape output (the signal that goes to the equalizer) is much larger and can cover up the noise generated by the equalizer.

It is always the same level regardless of the position of the volume control.

The preamp output is much smaller because you do not operate it with the volume control wide open or full on or tuned all the way up.
 
But with an integrated/receiver, the tape loop could conceivably be located AFTER the pre-out in the signal chain - in fact, it would have to be in order for there to be any noise-floor improvement over putting it in the pre-out jacks.
No...tape loops are a preamp function. Anything after the pre-out is, by definition and in reality, part of the power amp. Something somewhere along the way has confused you, but the pre-out of an integrated amp or a receiver equipped with pre-out jacks is the end of the preamp chain of electronics and the beginning of the power amp. Any performance gains that might be had with separates are also available when installing an EQ in the tape monitor of a receiver or integrated amp.

Download a few service manuals and follow some block diagrams.
 
But in terms of the noise-floor/SN ratio aspect, how could putting it the tape loop improve that when you have separates? By definition, a tape loop connection on a preamp still comes before the pre-out. But with an integrated/receiver, the tape loop could conceivably be located AFTER the pre-out in the signal chain - in fact, it would have to be in order for there to be any noise-floor improvement over putting it in the pre-out jacks.

Right?

More or less doubling up on responses, but a slightly different angle for consideration...

No. Tape loop is in the same part of the signal path regardless. If it was after the (generally speaking) pre out section every time you changed the volume level you'd screw up your recording level (on the presumption you were recording at the time, of course).
 
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Thanks folks for these explanations.

If the preamp's tape-out jacks are hotter than its main/pre-out jacks, then I understand that the EQ's noise would be lower (relative to the musical signal) if it's in the tape loop.

Here's the part I was forgetting about, or had a mental block about: By the same token, then, when the EQ'd signal returns to the preamp via the tape-in jacks, it's still relatively hot. So between those tape-in jacks and the preamp's main output, the preamp is attenuating the signal, yes? In other words, the preamp is attenuating the EQ's noise along with the musical signal, whereas when the EQ is hooked up to the preamp's main output, the preamp is attenuating the musical signal but not the EQ's noise.

Or am I still mixed up?
 
The preamp, or at least some sort of volume control equivalent function, has to control the output from 0 volts to something greater. Commonly, power amps need roughly 1.5V signal input to achieve full power out, although certainly some more and some less.

So, for all practical purposes, the preamp/volume control has to be able to control output from 0V up to about 1.5V. In that respect, since your signal is greater than zero if you have sound from the source, yes, attenuation is a necessity (unless you never want zero or low volume :)).
 
Here's the part I was forgetting about, or had a mental block about: By the same token, then, when the EQ'd signal returns to the preamp via the tape-in jacks, it's still relatively hot. So between those tape-in jacks and the preamp's main output, the preamp is attenuating the signal, yes? In other words, the preamp is attenuating the EQ's noise along with the musical signal, whereas when the EQ is hooked up to the preamp's main output, the preamp is attenuating the musical signal but not the EQ's noise.


Here's a block diagram of the flow through a Kenwood KA-9100. Note that the tape monitor is located before any active stage (save the phono amp) and before the volume control. This is pretty universal...tape monitor takes place before any active stuff and certainly before the volume control.
 
Need EQ connection help

I read all posts then dug out my old entry-level Rostech and I'm not sure where the jacks go. I'm thinking of connecting it to my Teac AG-360 receiver which has Tape inputs. Thanks for any help.
 
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Why do most equalizers have built in tape loops if they weren't meant to be connected to a tape loop?
 
I read all posts then dug out my old entry-level Rostech and I'm not sure where the jacks go. I'm thinking of connecting it to my Teac AG-360 receiver which has Tape inputs. Thanks for any help.

The Teac receiver's tape output should go into the Rostech EQ's Line 1 In. (Or its Line 2 in - doesn't really matter. Interesting that your Rostech has two Line inputs. I presume there's a selector on the front to choose between the two, yes?)

The Rostech's Line Out should then go into the Teac's tape input.

The Teac's tape out might be called Rec Out, and its tape in might be called Tape Monitor.
 
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Why do most equalizers have built in tape loops if they weren't meant to be connected to a tape loop?

EQs have tape loops for amps/receivers that lacked them. And sometimes they have two tape loops whereas an amp/receiver might have only one.
 
My question was rhetorical. It was supposed to illustrate that the best place to connect an equalizer is in a tape or EPL loop.
 
The Teac receiver's tape output should go into the Rostech EQ's Line 1 In. (Or its Line 2 in - doesn't really matter. Interesting that your Rostech has two Line inputs. I presume there's a selector on the front to choose between the two, yes?)

The Rostech's Line Out should then go into the Teac's tape input.

The Teac's tape out might be called Rec Out, and it's tape in might be called Tape Monitor.

yes there a line 1/2 selector on the front. Thanks again.
 
tmtomh...did what said and worked perfectly. Such a difference to my ears. First test was Supertramp Take The Long Way Home....amazing.
 
Put it in the tape loop where it belongs. You'll destroy your S/N ratio by putting it between the preamp and amplifier. Why?

The average signal level sent from the preamp to the amp is very low. At normal listening levels, this signal is well under 100mV (0.100V). This is down in the gutter, as we consider the signal vs noise levels of the EQ device, and way too close to the noise floor of the EQ itself. But both this noise and that weak signal are amplified by the power amp just the same...most power amps have a fixed gain of about 20db, so consider that you have just raised the noise floor of the EQ device by exactly the gain of the power amp...not good!! If someone said, "Pssst! I have a device here, for free, that's guaranteed to reduce the noise of your system by up to 20db!" would you be interested? You'd be a fool not to be. And this 'device' turns out to be nothing more than the instructions to move four interconnect cables. :thmbsp:

Look at it as if you were setting the record level on a tape deck. There's a reason you record at the highest level you possibly can...your noise floor is fixed, and you're trying to elevate your signal level above this noise floor as much as possible without saturating the tape. This idea of keeping the signal level as 'hot' as possible to reduce the perceived noise when recording to tape is a perfect analogy for why you'd want to do the same thing when passing the signal through an external signal processing device, such as an equalizer...the noise floor is 'fixed', and we want our signal as 'hot' as possible through the device to reduce the perceived noise that is added by the device itself. This is a core idea in all signal processing, or else giant mixing boards in the recording studios wouldn't have banks of LED's or analog level meters to assist engineers in setting signal levels...if it doesn't matter, why bother with level meters at all?

This is why the equalizer should be added to the tape loop (tape monitor) connectors, as the unattenuated signal level there is MUCH higher (10~20db and more) than the weak signal that is passed from the preamp to the amplifier. Don't believe this? Connect the 'Tape Out' jack to the 'Main In' jack of the amplifier (OK, don't do this, as you'll probably drive the amp into hard saturation and blow the amp or your speakers or both).

And it's not like it's a secret....equalizers for home audio have tape monitor facilities built into them because they are meant to go into your tape monitor loop, and the monitor functions on the EQ are there to replace those that are lost by using the loop for your EQ device.

This is your equipment, and you should do as you like. But, the AK forums are not about listening to Soundesign or York other worthless BPC, we're into real High-Fidelity gear here and helping others to maximize their enjoyment while minimizing their investment. And although there's a right way and a wrong way to get many things done, sometimes there's 'a way that will work', and 'a way that works a lot better'. Tweaking your setup to get the highest possible performance out of it means finding 'a way that works a lot better'.

For an EQ, that means putting it in the tape loop, for the reasons I've outlined above.
Thanks Echowars. I just did this. WOW! Great improvement for free:thmbsp:e.
 
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My exact dilemma with my Onkyo TX-8555...:no:

This receiver HAS NO "TAPE 2 loop" so I don't know whether an EQ can be connected to it IN ANY FASHION...
 
My exact dilemma with my Onkyo TX-8555...:no:

This receiver HAS NO "TAPE 2 loop" so I don't know whether an EQ can be connected to it IN ANY FASHION...

Your receiver has a Tape In and Tape Out - just connect the EQ to that (EQ main/line out to Tape in, and EQ main/line in to Tape Out).

If you currently have a tape deck hooked up to your receiver's Tape In/Out, then unhook it from there, and hook it up to the EQ's Tape In/Out.
 
Your receiver has a Tape In and Tape Out - just connect the EQ to that (EQ main/line out to Tape in, and EQ main/line in to Tape Out).

If you currently have a tape deck hooked up to your receiver's Tape In/Out, then unhook it from there, and hook it up to the EQ's Tape In/Out.

Thank you for the reply, tomh; this issue has been plaguing me for awhile now and I can't seem to get a straight answer on it. If you see my thread about it in this section of the forum you'll see what I mean...

Let me explain the situation and perhaps you can assist me further: I have a TASCAM CD recorder, not a tape deck, running through the receiver's TAPE IN/TAPE OUT right now so that all sources connected to the receiver may be recorded via analog of the recorder...are you suggesting that I can connect the CD recorder's analog IN/OUT to an EQ's TAPE IN/OUT, and then run the EQ's MAIN IN/OUT to the receiver's standard TAPE IN/OUT?

I was told this WOULDN'T work because the single TAPE in/out of the Onkyo is NOT a loop...:nono: :no:
 
Thank you for the reply, tomh; this issue has been plaguing me for awhile now and I can't seem to get a straight answer on it. If you see my thread about it in this section of the forum you'll see what I mean...

Let me explain the situation and perhaps you can assist me further: I have a TASCAM CD recorder, not a tape deck, running through the receiver's TAPE IN/TAPE OUT right now so that all sources connected to the receiver may be recorded via analog of the recorder...are you suggesting that I can connect the CD recorder's analog IN/OUT to an EQ's TAPE IN/OUT, and then run the EQ's MAIN IN/OUT to the receiver's standard TAPE IN/OUT?

I was told this WOULDN'T work because the single TAPE in/out of the Onkyo is NOT a loop...:nono: :no:

Ah, I see. Apparently the Onkyo receiver has no tape monitor button on the front. So while you can feed any input into the Tape Out jacks for recording, and you can play anything you want through the Tape In jacks, you can't do both at the same time - bummer.

Also, the receiver has pre-out jacks, but no main-in jacks, so you can't connect the EQ that way either.

Unfortunately, the only way you could use the EQ with that receiver, would be to use the EQ with only one playback source. So for example, if you have a regular CD player hooked up to the CD input on the receiver, you could put the EQ between the CD player and the receiver's CD input jacks. That would allow you to EQ the sound - but only when playing CDs. If you switched to the receiver's built-in tuner, or any other input, the EQ would not be available.
 
Ah, I see. Apparently the Onkyo receiver has no tape monitor button on the front. So while you can feed any input into the Tape Out jacks for recording, and you can play anything you want through the Tape In jacks, you can't do both at the same time - bummer.

Also, the receiver has pre-out jacks, but no main-in jacks, so you can't connect the EQ that way either.

Unfortunately, the only way you could use the EQ with that receiver, would be to use the EQ with only one playback source. So for example, if you have a regular CD player hooked up to the CD input on the receiver, you could put the EQ between the CD player and the receiver's CD input jacks. That would allow you to EQ the sound - but only when playing CDs. If you switched to the receiver's built-in tuner, or any other input, the EQ would not be available.

Yes, the way I understand it, I can ONLY connect ONE source through an EQ, but I would want EVERY source equalized so that wouldn't work...

Are you SURE I can't use an EQ's TAPE IN/OUT as a substitute for my receiver's lack of TAPE LOOP? :scratch2:
 
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