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ESS AMT 10b Woofer Recommendation.

This is subjective, but others share my opinion. The sound of the AMT "thins out" as it goes lower. It loses body and substance. It's tempting to run it as low as possible, to take full advantage of its remarkable clarity, but there are trade offs — one loses expressiveness. "Sound at the Speed of Light", as they advertised, can mean "sound" only, leaving musicality behind. I ran mine as 2-ways and my jaw dropped in awe at the transparency and detail, but inserting a very good midrange gave it so much more "feeling" and made long-term listening far more rewarding.

I wasn't correcting the "hole in the middle" created by the too-slow 12-inch old woofers, because there was none. It put "feeling" back into the Music — Violins sing more, the Blues hurt more, and Bob Marley is even more joyous.

Also, re the Woofer, and the "Original vs New" debate. I use newish, cheap no-name Polypropylene drivers I borrowed from an inexpensive pair of active home-studio monitors. I prefer it, and I've had several of the old ESS woofers to judge from. The light weight of the cone-material allows it to keep pace with the AMT's speed. It's high-efficiency makes it easy to integrate, and it'swell-made, with a vented pole-piece and butyl-rubber surrounds that won't decompose like foam. And a driver shouldn't have a "sound of its own" depending on what it's made of... though there may be a trace of it. A driver should be pistonic, and just move air.
It sounds much better if you extend the wings out on the waveguide a few inches on each side and try to cross it over as low as possible. Go to the Klipsch forum and there's several threads about this and how they have work through this issue.
 
Thanks, SleeperSupra. I saw the Kipsch Forum; those wings are pretty substantial! I played with wings about 3 years ago, but it was very half-hearted. I'd need a speaker cabinet of sufficient size; with a Great Heil or two on top... and I'd have to be very committed to it as a "final" design before putting in the effort. It's too much work to just "wing it."

At the moment I'm still experimenting, and I'm using smaller mono-polar Heils, not the dipolar Great Heils. So I think wings are in my future...
 
spoke with ess 2 weeks ago they said woofers are paper cones sprayed with poly liquid material. he didn't say impregnated our or whatever and I don't know what that means anyways fwiw
 
ginetto61, as jcidave suggests it's important to know the diaphragm limits. The longer the diaphragm, the lower the cutoff frequency, in general.
Hi ! really sorry for the late reply and thanks a lot for your valuable advice. Yes i was wrongly supposing that the Heil tweeters in the two models were identical Instead they are not I have listened to the biggest one and it is really an amazing driver. My friend has the AMT 10b, the big bookshelf.
If i will be able to convince him to sell him them i am even thinking to biamp them using a electronic x-over and a small amp for the Heil tweeters and a brute for the woofers.
I think i should set the cut at around 1.5kHz to be safe ? another friend a fan of JBL has a pair of exceptional 10" woofers with white cones that i love immensely
I think i will end with an hybrid .... i am very much on DIY ... very

I'm with you on the dipole issue. Some rooms (highly reflective) can be a problem to integrate with dipoles. At lower spl they can sound nice but higher spl can turn the response into "hash".
Really really happy to hear that ! i was thinking to be abnormal ... most of the rooms are not treated and the best performance often are obtained neutralizing the rear emission ... with a blanket or similar tricks
i can tell you one story actually about omni more than dipolar ... anyway. I was listening to an excellent recording of a female singer on MBL omni speakers ... the sound was well ... perfect ? however i could not locate the singer in the space ... her voice was coming from all around and was disorienting. I love those rock solid images when you can almost walk around players and singers (when the recording can provide this effect of course)
I like razor sharp sound images ...

I use the big heil with the back wave cancelled,
how do you do this ? if i understand well the smaller one is closed on the back

crossed over to a 15" driver @ 1khz. It's more of a constant directivity response which I prefer in this room here
Very very interesting and thank you very much again. I wonder if the smaller one would be safe down to 1.5kHz ... even if i do not listen at high SPLs at all.
Maybe crossing it actively using 24dB/octave slope filters i could go down even to 1kHz ?

if so i think biamping could be an interesting option
There are some little amps that sound quite good and cost almost nothing for the tweeters.
 
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ginetto61, you'd need to measure the response of your tweeter(s) to see how far down they can be pushed. An inexpensive USB mic and REW is what I used. They'll have a natural roll off someplace and that will pretty much dictate the Fc. You can EQ the bottom end a bit but distortion is another factor that you have to consider. You can push it only so far, if you know what I mean. A good design wouldn't limit SPL capability ;) ... my way of thinking anyway.

I built a small box for the big heil and placed that into the large woofer enclosure. They are set back to line up the acoustic centers with the woofer so they have a shallow waveguide being fabricated so the mouth(s) of the waveguide terminate at the main baffle front plane. The rear of the heil (inside the heil's box) is damped with foam and regular insulation. The rear cover of the heil box is removable so I can access the heil from inside the larger enclosure. I'd post pic's but they aren't quite done yet. When they're done they will resemble an Altec Valencia in size and driver placement.

I have (3) active crossovers settings for these. One crosses @1k (butterworth24) another crosses @1.2k (butterworth24) and another crosses @1.2k (butterworth12). They all sound fine even at high SPL. Again, this is with the large heil and a woofer that sounds nice pushed up that high. If you go the active (DSP) route, you'll never go back to passive ;)
 
ginetto61, you'd need to measure the response of your tweeter(s) to see how far down they can be pushed. An inexpensive USB mic and REW is what I used. They'll have a natural roll off someplace and that will pretty much dictate the Fc. You can EQ the bottom end a bit but distortion is another factor that you have to consider. You can push it only so far, if you know what I mean. A good design wouldn't limit SPL capability ;) ... my way of thinking anyway.
Hi ! yes i need a measuring rig indeed. I have somewhere already a Behringer mic this one to be more precise
https://www.strumentimusicali.net/p...j3olrS4eo8wEaArpWEnVvFDHoE1PM_KhoCrKgQAvD_BwE
i just need a decent sound card with XLR inputs and phantom power ... any suggestion ? Behringer is decent and very cheap I am an hobbyst not a pro

I built a small box for the big heil and placed that into the large woofer enclosure.
i see ... but why not place the Heil unit above the woofer enclosure ? in this way you will can make a very heavy and stiff cabinet for the woofers. For instance I am obsessed with front baffle construction ... i like the B&W arrangement with a box only for the woofer
04.jpg


a hole in the baffle for the woofer is mandatory ... :) but another hole will weaken the front baffle. Complicates the construction i mean. If the horn mouth of the Heil is recessed respect to the baffle plane you can simply put some foam on the top of the cabinet to avoid early unwanted reflections from the woofer cabinet.
The big woofers are beasts ... they deserve a cage just for themselves

They are set back to line up the acoustic centers with the woofer so they have a shallow waveguide being fabricated so the mouth(s) of the waveguide terminate at the main baffle front plane.
The rear of the heil (inside the heil's box) is damped with foam and regular insulation. The rear cover of the heil box is removable so I can access the heil from inside the larger enclosure. I'd post pic's but they aren't quite done yet. When they're done they will resemble an Altec Valencia in size and driver placement.
great creation indeed. I will love to see some pics ... i guess something like this ? in concept i mean ...
you could also end with something like this speaker from Ascendo brand ... i understand this is a world champion and extremely expensive. The woofer could be better ... it is small and with small coil ... limited clearly Decent for sure but not the end of the world ...

Ie0fmFNN1vESG1jxtEK-6UexSKBXhM8c_x27QCRnxlA2mNJrEdre5yCNuP6Z2roOVBOPxL7yjrf9tJC_zdy3TRMPm4QgTMz-bAOZK82d3Up9


I have (3) active crossovers settings for these. One crosses @1k (butterworth24) another crosses @1.2k (butterworth24) and another crosses @1.2k (butterworth12). They all sound fine even at high SPL. Again, this is with the large heil and a woofer that sounds nice pushed up that high.

thanks ! which crossover are you using specifically ? i read that digital ones are better than analogue ? i would prefer a unit controllable from a pc

If you go the active (DSP) route, you'll never go back to passive ;)
actually recording engineers use active speakers ... up to a price point i guess that the limiting factor is transducers quality. Some powered monitors are so cheap that drivers should be very low quality
I could mimic your solution but with the amt 10b transducers ... if i will be able to convince my friend. Thanks a lot again for the very kind and precious advice.
Kindest regards, gino
 
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Don;t need to get too fancy with things.
Unhappy with the Klipsch KG2 8" woofers and especially the tweeter, i came into some Heil tweeters and had some 1978 Infinity QB 10" woofers sitting for years.
I bought a Dayton Audio 2 way crossover that crosses at 2.5k, put a 3 Ohm resistor on the Heil and they blend real well with no hole I can hear.
I learned some time ago that a woofer isn;t just for bass.
The Old Infinity drivers have a decent lower midrange as well the way the center cone is, and deliver more than just whoomp whoomp bass.
Very happy with this project mod. The Heil's get to sing again and are mated to a woofer that rounds out their tone.
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Yep!!
You don't need fancy measuring equipment, or huddle around you peaks/dips etc.
If you have a decent ear, good recall-and understand how small Thiel specs plug into a design-you can have some fun.
The measurement are interesting-but like anything-some of these guys get to involved on what they see-and less in what the REALLY are hearing.
That in a nut shell is why a take alot of that measurment analyzation with a grain of salt-too many variables in audio to hang your opinions/etc on measurements alone.
Interesting and valuable when take in context.
 
There's a ton of woofers out there that would do the job better. Technology moves forward. What's the point of getting something of questionable history off of eBay when you can have new with a warranty for about the same price? If you're looking to "restore, hold out for OEM. If you're looking to listen, go over to Parts express and start pouring over the 10" woofer selection. You can filter your searches by size and impedence. PE also lists desired enclosure volumes in the specs on the woofers.

Original ESS 10" woofer -vs- Dayton ST255-8 - No comparison. Although the Dayton is now discontinued, it remains a demonstration of the great potential of modern manufacturing and should encourage pursuit of non-OEM alternatives.


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Hmmm.....seems like a said the same thing awhile back......
 
Here is one in my shop ... mocked up waveguide is masonite panel right now.
 

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automojo .... once like you thinking the ear was good enough. The reality is that we'll tune to what we think sounds right. Then, some recordings sound great while others don't. Reason is that midrange frequency emphasis changes from recording to recording and you chase your tail tweaking around the dips and humps you can't pick out depending on what you're listening to.

Get a cheap USB mic ... flatten the frequency response w/REW and BOOM, what ever you play back sounds right. Then you KNOW if the response you favor needs broadband EQ someplace .. like midrange enhancement or a bit less. No guessing. Once you put the two together .. eyes AND ears, you know how a setting or change influences the sound in your listening space. We're all after better sound. These are helpful tools to that end.
 
:thumbsup:
automojo .... once like you thinking the ear was good enough. The reality is that we'll tune to what we think sounds right. Then, some recordings sound great while others don't. Reason is that midrange frequency emphasis changes from recording to recording and you chase your tail tweaking around the dips and humps you can't pick out depending on what you're listening to.

Get a cheap USB mic ... flatten the frequency response w/REW and BOOM, what ever you play back sounds right. Then you KNOW if the response you favor needs broadband EQ someplace .. like midrange enhancement or a bit less. No guessing. Once you put the two together .. eyes AND ears, you know how a setting or change influences the sound in your listening space. We're all after better sound. These are helpful tools to that end.

Amen! :thumbsup:
 
Nice pic's ginetto61 ... I like the black number. Is that what you had in mind? Looks sharp!

When I first build my enclosure I made it with a couple modifications in mind so it was basically convertible. I wasn't sure if the woofer wanted ports as I tend to prefer sealed. The box was made large enough to accommodate porting. I left it sealed so far using a lower shelving EQ option. The bass is tight. The box is overdamped (Q=0.5) but that isn't/wasn't out of the ordinary. The enclosure was flipped over with the heil on top but the struggle with a lively room and higher SPL doomed a full dipole arrangement. Like toddalin mentioned a few times, I tried a partial muffling of the rear side but couldn't find the right combination. I listen to everything and some genre like the "ambiance" of the rear wave but most don't, just MO.

At any rate, sometimes a guy gets something in his head and out comes the saw. I suppose I could flip it back and make a separate enclosure for the heil above ... "Volti" style. It would resemble the fine pic's you posted. .... thanks for that ginetto61 (grrrr) :)

GL with your build!
 
Hmmm.....seems like a said the same thing awhile back......
I plagiarized your various tests and observations at the time with the installation of the Dayton woofers, but in light of you deeming the 255's personna non grata, the sentiment is mine.;)
 
I plagiarized your various tests and observations at the time with the installation of the Dayton woofers, but in light of you deeming the 255's personna non grata, the sentiment is mine.;)
ST255-8
Get it right!!
D1D9A2B3-1915-497C-AF7E-D7643EDF460D.jpeg
 
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automojo .... once like you thinking the ear was good enough. The reality is that we'll tune to what we think sounds right. Then, some recordings sound great while others don't. Reason is that midrange frequency emphasis changes from recording to recording and you chase your tail tweaking around the dips and humps you can't pick out depending on what you're listening to.

Get a cheap USB mic ... flatten the frequency response w/REW and BOOM, what ever you play back sounds right. Then you KNOW if the response you favor needs broadband EQ someplace .. like midrange enhancement or a bit less. No guessing. Once you put the two together .. eyes AND ears, you know how a setting or change influences the sound in your listening space. We're all after better sound. These are helpful tools to that end.
Sure... Completely your opinion, your entitled to it.
Maybe at some point
I have the PE setup, had it for some time.
I use it if I feel/ hear the need.
I’ve also had access to Electrovoice, along the way.
I’m not discounting measurements, it’s how much weight you put in them in the end.
I have a good feel for what I’m doing, and my Audio buddies seem to think so as well
I’m certainly not foolish enough just to depend on my own hearing , I’m constantly using other peoples inputs on changes etc
IMHO that’s holds much more weight then simply a bar graph etc.
So.....what’s the problem?
IMHO...
Whatever works to get the good sound your looking for, there are more the a number of way to achieve that!
Not everyone wants to go your route, or mine.
I don’t see the problem...
(If you stop for a minute and ponder, there is a certain beauty in achieving the same or similar goal by different means.. instead of discounting it)...
Unless you simply looking fo everyone to agree with your opinions or points of view...
If so, that’s a topic for a different form than audio karma!;)
I know I joke around and have some fun..,some people certainly take their opinions and like count way to seriously whatever, , but I appreciate a open forum, with a free flow of ideas..... and respect those ideas for sure..
Having a ruler flat frequency response does not guarantee a good sounding speaker, Or one that you would like to live with on a daily basis.
Same goes for Great Heil time alignment.
Huge dips and peaks, obviously not good...but
sometimes you can over tweak...IMHO.
And certainly you can get over absorbed in what you see measurement wise, and maybe “ hear what you want” when looking at a 1db rise etc, without other humans input hearing wise.
Maybe in the same room too.... not over the Internet!!!
Cheez ... I have to wonder if some are Internet geeks and don’t have much in person human involvement interaction...
 
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Hey, didn't the pictured 1040 also get discontinued shortly after it became your main squeeze? You may be to drivers what Ted McGinley is to television shows.

View attachment 1952141
Hmm could be...
A relic?!?
Damn it!!!
I knew it would happen!!!
Sure, they were discontinued one orange county speakers closed but apparently there was a pile of them laying around.
Misco let me down with the 8 ohm version
But did market a 4 ohm version!!!
 
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Hey, didn't the pictured 1040 also get discontinued shortly after it became your main squeeze? You may be to drivers what Ted McGinley is to television shows.

View attachment 1952141
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Ha!
Another relic...Mojo+ hardwire crossover Ver3.1+
Jantzen/Mundorf Evo Oils 2/3-1/3 mix...
12 ga custom Menicus bass coil..
12lbs of auditory nirvana!!!
PS: I will provide full measurements in a upcoming thread, along with a HD video, so the arm chair critics can listen and make sure there are no peaks in the Great Heils response...
FIY, Heil lenses, wings, need not apply....o_O
And Ethel-take a hike! We don't need your music less flat sound around these parts!!
For me-that's the nice thing about the Mojo modded AMT3's.
I'm sure Will can attest to this.
It's not the Heil show
Mid woofer show.
Woofer show
It's become a well integrated speaker you can enjoy with any type of music.
That's the key to great speaker design IMHO
Driver integration
Your not listening to the speakers-your listening to the music....
5F8358B9-EBB2-4D81-8A9D-453773C868E0.jpeg
 
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