Everyone thinks they own a VPI...

[91r100gs]

To Dmitry's question about a list of decent sub-$500 current turntables, I happen to have that list right in front of me. It's a blank sheet of paper.

Seemingly..seemingly.
Hold it to the nozzle of your steaming tea-pot, and the invisible ink will show. The list is written in milk.

Paid $391 for a Music Hall MMf 2.2 Served me faithfully for 3 years with zero problems. Sold it for 80% of what I paid for it. BTW it is a DECENT turntable.

Many times I wish it was still mine. It is a hell of a lot better than the $400, forty year old worn out TT I bought on Bartertown. It was supposedly restored/refreshed about 2 years ago.

 

[HVHiFI]

Seemingly..seemingly.
Hold it to the nozzle of your steaming tea-pot, and the invisible ink will show. The list is written in milk.

Poor dead Mr. Ed just continues to be flogged.

I just don't understand why go with the mindset of everything made before 1980 is gold and made after is junk? There is no rule that says you cannot enjoy gear from all eras.

Question for you modern haters. What is wrong with a U-turn Orbit plus? If you convert the money end it is currently $309 which would be what like $50-75 in the 1970's. What could you have bought for that money then that would be earth shaken better?

 

[Ken Boyd]

Poor dead Mr. Ed just continues to be flogged.

I just don't understand why go with the mindset of everything made before 1980 is gold and made after is junk? There is no rule that says you cannot enjoy gear from all eras.

Question for you modern haters. What is wrong with a U-turn Orbit plus? If you convert the money end it is currently $309 which would be what like $50-75 in the 1970's. What could you have bought for that money then that would be earth shaken better?

Didn't I list three earlier in this thread, and I put the specs up against the VPI. The owner of the VPI admitted that the specs were better, but Mr. Ed just claimed manufactures lie about the specs, and another person said the VPI sounded better, neither argument in defense of new tables presented a very compelling case.

Another fact is I don't need to convert the currency to compare to historic prices. I don't care what the price of the tables were in 1970, I will compare what I paid for the tables period. If my GW turntable that I paid 29 dollars for has better specs and has performed flawlessly since I purchased it those are the facts and that is what I personally would compare to any other table. I have been listening to vinyl since the early 70's and have owned tables for the entire duration, I have nothing against new tables, but I have nothing against an older table either. I go into a purchase with open eyes, and don't tie my hands behind my back.

 

[MannyE]

Surely you're joking. That has certainly not been my experience. I had a very nice Thorens TD318 which I recently replaced with an $800 Sota, and the improvement running the same cartridge is just staggering. A night-and-day difference. Rega puts a lot of effort into these tonearms, and they completely blow the old TP-21 out of the water. That old clunker just can't hold a candle, from the resonances to the bearings, it just was no where near right by compare.

I like this post because it is based on actual experience. Anything else is typing to hear your own voice in your head.

Arguing that specs are enough to make a choice is being the kind of person P.. T. Barnum was looking for. Paper will allow anyone to write anything on it.

Anyone who has actually seen and hear and touched a Crosley POS will admit that even a BOTL table (assuming it is working) from the 70s to the 90s is better. I wouldn't even give you 20 bucks for a brand new Crosley.

However, you can't lump everything else in with Crosley. Music Hall, which is the only brand I will talk about because I actually own one and listen to one, make brand new turntables that are far better than most of the used p-mount tables now being found out there from that era.

Is a new Music Hall better than a good condition SL1200 Mk 2? I don't know myself but there are a lot of people that say it isn't. But until you sit in a room and listen to them side by side you are simply yelling on a corner holding a sign that says "Look at the Specs."

Considering the cost of acquiring, restoring and maintaining most of the high end direct drive turntables runs into way over $1,000 (technics sp-10 anyone?) they are in a completely different league and irrelevant in this conversation. I would never say "everyone with an SP-10 thinks they have a VPI" because they very well might! I know that before I dropped 30k on a VPI direct drive I would certainly listen (not look at the specs) to a few restored TOTL vintage tables and maybe save myself 20k.






Sent from my TARDIS at the restaurant at the end of the universe while eating Phil.

 

[Dr Tinear]

... Arguing that specs are enough to make a choice is being the kind of person P.. T. Barnum was looking for. Paper will allow anyone to write anything on it. [Emphasis added]

That observation applies as much to the pages of $tereophile and TA$ as it does to turntable manufacturers' spec sheets ... or to the musings of manufacturers such as Roy Gandy (Rega) who hide their products' shortcomings by proclaiming that specs don't matter and refusing to provide any.

Anyone who has actually seen and hear and touched a Crosley POS will admit that even a BOTL table (assuming it is working) from the 70s to the 90s is better. I wouldn't even give you 20 bucks for a brand new Crosley.

I agree completely.

However, you can't lump everything else in with Crosley. Music Hall, which is the only brand I will talk about because I actually own one and listen to one, make brand new turntables that are far better than most of the used p-mount tables now being found out there from that era.

That depends on which Music Hall model you choose. The USB-1 is a Chinese-made bottom-feeder with appalling specs. I expect that almost any major-brand direct-drive 'table from the 1980s would be audibly better than the USB-1 on any type of music that was the least bit revealing of wow and flutter. Its 0.25% W&F wouldn't even have qualified as mid-fi in the 1970s. The mmf-2.2 is better, but still looks cheap to me, and its 0.15% W&F spec would compel me to audition the thing at length before giving it much consideration. The higher-priced Music Hall models that I've heard generally impressed me as good performers.

Is a new Music Hall better than a good condition SL1200 Mk 2? I don't know myself but there are a lot of people that say it isn't. But until you sit in a room and listen to them side by side you are simply yelling on a corner holding a sign that says "Look at the Specs."

I don't recall seeing any claims here that published specs tell the whole story. I personally use them as a filter to separate turntables that are potentially worth an audition from those that would be a waste of my time. Unfortunately many of today's "entry-level audiophile" turntables have such poorly-designed or poorly-built drive systems that they fall into the latter class for me. YMMV, since not all audiophiles have the same sensitivity to flutter or listen to music that tends to reveal speed stability problems.

Considering the cost of acquiring, restoring and maintaining most of the high end direct drive turntables runs into way over $1,000 (technics sp-10 anyone?) they are in a completely different league and irrelevant in this conversation. I would never say "everyone with an SP-10 thinks they have a VPI" because they very well might! I know that before I dropped 30k on a VPI direct drive I would certainly listen (not look at the specs) to a few restored TOTL vintage tables and maybe save myself 20k. ...

 

[MannyE]

I can only imagine that MH, like any other manufacturer saw the large green being laid out by 20somethings for Crosley and decided not to leave that money on the table. Kind of like the Cadillac Cimarron. It's a risky move because making a crappy bottom line product can damage the rep of the entire brand.

Maybe I'm old but if I see a USB on a turntable I'm instantly turned off. If I want to archive vinyl I will pay someone with a laser turntable to transfer it for me. Of course that's not a fair statement because i have never heard one. BUT I still feel that way

I've got to read through the thread again but there were some pretty vehement, foam at the mouth insistence on specs being the end all. Maybe it's my flawed recollection. Quite possible as all this posting is done on my phone for the most part.


Sent from my TARDIS at the restaurant at the end of the universe while eating Phil.

 

[BillWojo]

Right now on CL is a Denon DP-37F TT for 250 with a AT cart or for 300 he will put a Shure V15 III cart on it. Looks really clean and he will demo it at his residence. It's in Leesport PA. Show me a table for under a grand that will better that.
Don't care for Denon? How about a JVC QL-Y5F in excellent condition in the Jersey shore area for 450. Lot's of really nice tables out there.
BillWojo

 

[MannyE]

I'll show you plenty of 800 tables that will probably equal or better it. But I doubt anyone could find a new 300 dollar one that can.

This and the 47 (but especially the 37 as it's always undervalued) are the ones I've been keeping an eye out for. I think they look great and have plenty of customizing potential for even more eye appeal.

But that's not the tables I'm seeing on CL (at least here in Miami) for 150-200. The 37 is in a different league again.


Sent from my TARDIS at the restaurant at the end of the universe while eating Phil.