Everyone thinks they own a VPI...

[rolltide]

I tend not to believe that if one paid 4 figures for a new turntable, they would be disappointed in comparison with finding a well groomed vintage TOTL unit at $200 instead.

Why? Because one is new product and the other is somebody else's old beater being moved on.

The party line around this place, however, is you need to spend at least a few thousand to get anything that would be equivalent to something back in the day in decent shape.

I might actually believe that statement if those making such claims have actually tried doing it, or could cite examples on what they are talking about. When pressed, they back off and post snarky remarks instead.

Here's another theory that should be presented side by side with the one you list above: People whose budgets dictate the $200 vintage table over the four-figure tables convince themselves they sound as good or better because they have no recourse. Like the owners of expensive tables you reference above, we're rarely treated to examples of their first hand experience with both. They'll cut and paste wow and flutter specs, but that's all we get.

I ran two turntables side by side for years. One being a rotating cast of new tables, the other being a Technics 1200MK2. The Technics was straight up better then the Rega RP-1 that cost more then it did, no contest. With less expensive cartridges it held its own vs. the Clearaudio Concept, but the CA had a higher ceiling with better cartridges.

When I got the VPI Classic, I moved the Technics down to the basement and have since given it to a friend. There just wasn't any reason left to have two tables for variety, one was just clearly much better then the other.

I'm not sure how the VPI would compare to the true high end tables from Denon or Yamaha, but its sort of a moot point as these are quite expensive now as well. I'm very curious about owning a refurbished 50's idler like a Garrard or Thorens, but I wager this is more a matter of different then better.

The moral of this story? The dogma on new vs. vintage is wrong on both sides.

 

[Sam Cogley]

Wow. Lately there's always some know-it-all who wants to say something insulting under the guise of being witty. Save the slick talk for your significant other if you have one. The original post mentioned dusty, scratched up turntables. There are inexpensive turntables currently sold that are well-reviewed, so buying a current turntable isn't a big deal. That's all I said. Where's that "logical fallacy" bs coming from? Stop.

There were several posts between the first one and yours - and the content of your post acknowledged that fact. The nature of a conversation tends to draw in more information than only what is presented in the first post. If you think there are only the binary options of buying a worn-out, mediocre turntable at 2x-3x the original asking price or buying a new turntable, then the strawman fallacy comment was spot on.

 

[MannyE]

Wtf does my question have to do with the used/restored market vs the new market? I was just noting that turntables which even 20-30 years ago were BOTL plastic introductory tables like the Denon 7F someone mentioned above (which by the way I did find one of those for 20 bucks.) have in last few weeks started to show up in CL for over 100 bucks. 149 is about average.

I think that's nuts. I'll go 20 or even 50 for something like a technics BOTL or the aforementioned Denon semi auto that's unrestored but not 150.

Top of the line legendary tables are a completely different subject. The days of finding those gathering dust on a shelf were over 10 years ago. I wish I had known more back then!


Sent from my TARDIS at the restaurant at the end of the universe while eating Phil.

 

[safulop]

A tonearm is a tonearm regardless how people try to portray them, carbon fiber, wood, aluminum or whatever, its still just a tonearm and I doubt many people in a blind test could tell the difference provided the vintage table is setup right and has a damn good cart on it

I think this is not right. A tonearm is most certainly not a tonearm, a fact I learned when I bought a new SOTA to replace my old Thorens. The Thorens sounded nice to me, but when I heard the Rega arm I knew which one was right. I will post test results to show the difference.

As Rega states in their literature, a micron play in the tonearm bearing will mean that signals at 10 kHz will be essentially random. I've got a 28-year old car and I know the bearings are not as good as when they were new. So I don't see how a vintage tonearm could have bearings as good as new.

 

[vincei]

I find it interesting that less than 5 years ago nobody here was recommending buying a brand new Technics SL-1200 (before they quit making them) at $700. They were discontinued because of lack of sales.

Now you hear about old ones going for $4-500 routinely getting recommended as killer deals. Once again, I think much of this is about something being vintage and the hunt for things old, and not so much about the sound or the actual turntable in question. Things become valuable to some when you can't buy them new anymore, simple as that.

NO, people were ignorant. :thumbsdn:

 

[lico]

Wtf does my question have to do with the used/restored market vs the new market? I was just noting that turntables which even 20-30 years ago were BOTL plastic introductory tables like the Denon 7F someone mentioned above (which by the way I did find one of those for 20 bucks.) have in last few weeks started to show up in CL for over 100 bucks. 149 is about average.

I think that's nuts. I'll go 20 or even 50 for something like a technics BOTL or the aforementioned Denon semi auto that's unrestored but not 150.

Top of the line legendary tables are a completely different subject. The days of finding those gathering dust on a shelf were over 10 years ago. I wish I had known more back then!


Sent from my TARDIS at the restaurant at the end of the universe while eating Phil.

Back on topic. BOTL tables in my neck of the woods on CL right now, for $50 you can still find things, these are probably all straight from the thrifts though:

Technics SL-D303 $60
Marantz 6065 $65
Sanyo TPB1 $45
Sony PS-LX3 $40
Pioneer PL-450 $55

 

[chuck r]

I have noticed it doesnt matter what hobby you are into, the good items for that hobby from the late 60's and 70 's have all jumped in price. Check out a 1970 Honda Mini Trail, they are getting over $2000 for those little things. People from that time frame are old enough to have some cash and want to relive their younger years. They are willing to spend and the real good stuff can command a premium.

 

[Dr Tinear]

... I've got a 28-year old car and I know the bearings are not as good as when they were new. So I don't see how a vintage tonearm could have bearings as good as new.

I don't think that analogy holds up in practice. I've done maintenance, setup, and/or repairs on many vintage turntables over the years. Very few of them showed signs of wear or excessive play in the main platter thrust bearing or the arm bearings. My current project, a Thorens TD-124, dates to the early 1960s. Its platter bearing has no perceptible slop and the smoothness with which that massive iron platter rotates is amazing. The Empire tonearm that came with it also seems tight. The only reason I'm planning to replace the arm is that its effective mass is on the high side for modern cartridges.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Scout goes for close to $2000 now. What vintage comes at that price? Likely Yamaha GT-2000 and some Micro Seiki models. I would like to have side to side comparison between them.

The key word is "some". A $1200 Rega may not play at speed, and at least you posted an example. Now are all $1200 new turntables that way? Highly doubtful. And there are budget turntables that do play at speed as well as an AR XA back in the day.

Yes that is true. Just fur clarity...I got my Scout 7 years ago for $1200 and paid as much as $400-500 for the PL-L1000 and DP-60L so it wasn't an totally crazy comparison.


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The specs on the Scout don't measure as well on a number of areas as the Yamaha PX2 or PX3. Specifically the Wow and flutter on the Yamaha is less than .01% while VPI doesn't list it yet another source list it as greater than <.02%. Start up speed the Yamaha is better, signal to noise is equal, no bearings to contend with on the Yamaha, oh and I think the Yamaha has less tracking error. But I wouldn't mind hearing the Scout, I think it is plenty capable. As far as price it all is a matter of luck, I don't really prefer to discuss price but I can say I paid less than half of what you paid for your PL -L1000 for my Yamaha PX2. I also have a PL under the Phase Linear badge, I think most of its specs are better as well.


Yamaha Specs:

Motor : 4-Phase, 8-Pole
Brushless DC Hall motor
Platter : 31cm
2,1kg aluminium
Speeds : 33 1/3 / 45rpm
Noise-floor : 80dB (DIN-B)
Wow & flutter : 0,01% (WRMS)
Starting torque : 1kg/cm or more
Locking torque : 450g/cm
Tonearm :
Effective length : 19 cm
Tracking error : 0,15°
Overhang : ?
VTA : +/- 4mm
Resonance : 12Hz {6Hz ?}
Cartridge weight : 5...11g
10...16g with supp. weight
Headshell : aluminium, EIA type, 8g.
Arm+cable capacitance : 130pF
PC : 25W
Dimensions : 49,3 x 15,6 x 42,8cm
Weight : 17kg.
Features • Aluminium base
• Optimum Mass tonearm
• gold-plated outputs
• BMC enclosure
• resonance damping platter mat
• low resonance tonearm/headshell
• 8 LEDs for indication of activity
• Quartz PLL/FG motor



Pioneer PL table
:
Platter : 31cm, Die-Cast aluminium
Inertial mass : 330kg/cm2 (incl. rubber mat)
Speeds : 33 1/3 & 45rpm
Wow & Flutter : < 0,025% (WRMS)
< 0,013% (WRMS, measured at FG output)
S/N ratio : > 78dB (DIN-B)
ROTATIONAL
Build-up time : within 90° at 33 1/3 rpm
Speed deviation : < 0,002%
Speed vs load : stable up to 220g drag load
Speed drift : < 0,00008% per hour at 33 1/3rpm
< 0,00003% per temp degree change at 33 1/3rpm.
TONEARM
Type : linear-motor direct-drive
static-balanced
tangential tracking
Effective length : 190mm
Overhang : 0mm
Resonance : 6,5Hz
Cartridge weight : 4g...14g
14g...23g with aux. weight
Arm height adjustement : ± 3mm

As far as in proved sound, the only thing I can think of would be a more damped arm, which both the Yamaha and the Pioneer table lacks. I have a JVC that I have near the TOTL and it has a great sound, I think much related to the arm I paid less than $30 dollars for it at a GW not long ago. It's specs also seem to bear quite favorable to those of the Scout.

JVC table:
Motor : coreless DC servo
Drive system : direct-drive
Speeds : 33 1/3 & 45rpm
Speed detection : integrated FG
Servo system : Double Quartz servo
Startup time : < 1,2s (=80°)
Quick-stop time : < 1s
Wow & flutter : < 0,01% (WRMS)
S/N ratio : > 78dB (DIN-B)
Startup torque : >1,2kg/cm
Overshoot : < 2%
Speed deviation : < 0,002%
Load characteristics : 0% (<170g load)
Drift / hour : 0,00001%
±10% voltage drift : 0,002%
Thermal drift : 0,00005% / °C
Platter : 31,6cm / 2kg
diecast aluminium
Tonearm : electronically balanced
Effective length : 24,5cm
Tracking error : ?
Overhang : ?
Tracking force : 0...3g (0,1g steps)
Max. cartridge weight : 14,5...24g
24...38g (with SW-Y7 conterweight)
VTA : ±3mm
Dimensions : 48 x 17,7 x 43,6cm
Weight : 12,5kg.

I think it is fair to say, that with a little shopping and careful selection a use vintage table with better specs can be found for less than 1/10 the price of a Scout.

 

[kmulkey]

Well sure. Heck the specs on most 30 year old technics are better than the Scout. The Scout still sounds better.


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[HypnoToad]

Well sure. Heck the specs on most 30 year old technics are better than the Scout. The Scout still sounds better.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

If I ever bought another turntable it would be a Scout or even a Scoutmaster, I just love the look of those things.

 

[savatage1973]

Wtf does my question have to do with the used/restored market vs the new market? I was just noting that turntables which even 20-30 years ago were BOTL plastic introductory tables like the Denon 7F someone mentioned above (which by the way I did find one of those for 20 bucks.) have in last few weeks started to show up in CL for over 100 bucks. 149 is about average.

I think that's nuts. I'll go 20 or even 50 for something like a technics BOTL or the aforementioned Denon semi auto that's unrestored but not 150.

Top of the line legendary tables are a completely different subject. The days of finding those gathering dust on a shelf were over 10 years ago. I wish I had known more back then!

Supply and demand and "coolness" factor. This is true of pretty much all "vintage" audio gear.

I remember when you could pull monster silver faced receivers out of the trash or buy them at yard sales for $5-10 because they were being replaced by BPC AVRs with all the new "cool" goodies--you know, the ones that are now littering the thrifts and yard sales for $20 or less.

How many R2R decks, cassette decks and TTs do you think "bit the dust" after the introduction of the CDP? Probably half of my record collection was built from other people's collections that they just wanted to get rid of for free to clean out their basement/garage.

Those who never total ditched the old stuff, or got back into it early on in the "resurgence" got all the good deals, so supply is limited and the "coolness" factor is up, sooooo--so are the prices.

Even BOTL or "mediocre" vintage gear is commanding some serious (and in some cases) ridiculous money. It is what it is.

If I had unlimited resources, would I go out and buy an all brand-new TOTL system?... probably not--not to disparage those who can and will, but from an "investment" perspective, new high-end audio gear depreciates as fast (if not faster) than a new high-end sports/luxury car when you pull out of the parking lot.

A quick Google search will show that the highest % and most rapid depreciation is on high-end luxury goods and the highest rate of appreciation is on "old junk".

I get your original point--some stuff that is/was pretty much "junk" is commanding ridiculous prices because of the market, but like I said--it is what it is.

But OTOH, if I found the 12th Mustang ever produced beat to hell in a barn, I'd likely pay top dollar for it knowing that I'd have to spend $20K to restore it to original--even though a new Civic can outrun/out-handle it hands down.

 

[vinyl1]

If I had unlimited resources, would I go out and buy an all brand-new TOTL system?... probably not--not to disparage those who can and will, but from an "investment" perspective, new high-end audio gear depreciates as fast (if not faster) than a new high-end sports/luxury car when you pull out of the parking lot.

While some high-end gear does depreciate rapidly, I don't see that in turntables. A late model VPI Classic is still going to cost you over $2000. Now if you're looking at stuff that is 5, 10, or 15 years old, that's a different matter.

 

[for_p1]

While some high-end gear does depreciate rapidly, I don't see that in turntables. A late model VPI Classic is still going to cost you over $2000. Now if you're looking at stuff that is 5, 10, or 15 years old, that's a different matter.

I saw used Classic 1 offered for $1700. New one is around $2500 now.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

I love the best turntables old and new. And many which were not.

 

[Northwinds]

I guess the bottomline is if it spins a record and the sound puts a smile on your face, that is all that counts new or old

Great conversation folks!

 

[Dr Tinear]

The specs on the [VPI] Scout don't measure as well on a number of areas as the Yamaha PX2 or PX3. Specifically the Wow and flutter on the Yamaha is less than .01% while VPI doesn't list it yet another source list it as greater than <.02%. ...

Both 0.01% and 0.02% wow and flutter are inaudible, and probably less than what's pressed into most records due to the center hole not being perfectly centered, so why worry about it? I don't start getting fussy about wow and flutter specs until they get to 0.08% or higher, a range that I can hear on the right kind of music.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Both 0.01% and 0.02% wow and flutter are inaudible, and probably less than what's pressed into most records due to the center hole not being perfectly centered, so why worry about it? I don't start getting fussy about wow and flutter specs until they get to 0.08% or higher, a range that I can hear on the right kind of music.

The three old Japanese tables all fall below those specs, but the VPI does not, the only reference was a reviewers spec and it put the Scout at greater than .02% but did not state how much greater. The owner seems to think it sounds fine so I can only guess it is at a low enough figure to not be a problem.

 

[Dmitry]

Re:specs on TTs. You are assuming they are truthful, and I doubt they are. Who's going to check the veracity of Yamaha's spec sheet regarding the wow and flutter?!

Re:new TTs are piss-poor. There are infinitely more old p.o.s. TTs on CL than new P.O.S. TTs. If it was otherwise, we'd see lots of newer TTs on CL, but we don't.

Re:no good components on CL. IMHO, it depends on the area you live in. My mighty State is much poorer than her neighbors, hence I almost never see anything of value on the RI CL, and lots of goodies on the MA and CT CLs..

 

[Ken Boyd]

I guess it is safe to say if the specs are not truthful on the Yamaha or JVC then same goes the VPI.