Finally dove into the MC pool... WOW

[AvFan]

So within a certain range of mass --- is lower effective mass better?

Thanks!

I think of effective mass in terms of resonance between the cart and tonearm so a lower EM isn't always better. But what @adnick is describing would lower the moment of inertia of the tonearm which is a good thing in particular if the record has an off-center spindle hole. In that case the counterweight is swinging back and forth causing all kinds of forces on the stylus as it navigates the groove moving side to side. I bet the spindle holes of most records are at least a little off center as well as when the hole is slightly larger than the spindle.

 

[Mr Boochie]

I think of effective mass in terms of resonance between the cart and tonearm so a lower EM isn't always better. But what @adnick is describing would lower the moment of inertia of the tonearm which is a good thing in particular if the record has an off-center spindle hole. In that case the counterweight is swinging back and forth causing all kinds of forces on the stylus as it navigates the groove moving side to side. I bet the spindle holes of most records are at least a little off center as well as when the hole is slightly larger than the spindle.

For sure on the spindle holes. I noticed that some used records have visibly worn oblong holes.

Yes, resonance range is important. I run a test record, after all the tweaking on arms and headshells --- just to be sure I'm still in a good range. I like 8-10Hz, for my system.

 

[BillWojo]

(Mass) times (distance squared) is the formula for moment of inertia around an axis of rotation. Pretty easy to see how a point of mass, the counterweight being moved back and forth can drastically change the moment of inertia. Simple high school physics. Do they even teach that today?

BillWojo

 

[adnick]

Variable effective mass based on counterweight position is not a new concept, Ortofon used it in tonearm specifications like the AS212 MkII

https://www.ortofon.com/media/15227/as_212_vintage_page-2.jpeg

Keep in mind that being able to reduce or increase EM is useful when using specific cartridges, reducing headshell weight and moving the counterweight closer to the pivot point will certainly reduce EM, how much

VR
Andy

 

[Hajidub]

I'm using a homebrewed EAR834 tube pre, that works with MM only, driving a 300B amp and after trying a few MM carts was super happy with the AT VM540ML.

Well I finally dove in, got an MC cart and a SUT box from Ned Clayton using those cinemag transformers. Hooked this up to an AT 0C9MXL, and after finding the right combination of turns ratio switches for this cart, I am stunned. I'm hearing stuff I didn't even know was there, I can hear individual voices in the chorus sections. The delicacy of the high end is.. again shocking is the only word I can come up with. Still has great bass and smooth mids without being fatiguing, and I'm sure after some hours of breaking it, it's just gonna get better.

So yeah, it was worth the $1000 price of admission. BTW this is on a Technics SL-B2 belt drive table. Don't let people tell you a table in this class can't benefit from a good cart. I am gonna keep the VM540ML around for less than pristine vinyl, but I'm sold on MC being the way to go.

Using a recent purchased EAR clone (Zhibli) and have never owned an MC cart. It has an MC button on the back and I'm anxious to try one. BTW, the build is so exact, that even at max volume there is zero hum so I'm excited with this purchase. Looking forward to a possible YT video and what you think.

 

[Mr Boochie]

Using a recent purchased EAR clone (Zhibli) and have never owned an MC cart. It has an MC button on the back and I'm anxious to try one. BTW, the build is so exact, that even at max volume there is zero hum so I'm excited with this purchase. Looking forward to a possible YT video and what you think.

YouTube video would be nice. Prolly one straight off the phono pre-amp or receiver would be the easiest. Straight into camera or phone, if possible.

It took some trial-&-error for me get mic recording off speakers to sound simliar to what I was hearing live. It's crazy how room acoustics really sound different on a recording, than what you hear live. Usually, for the worse.

BTW... I find that YouTube's MP4 format sounds pretty good. Not the compressed sound that plagued the site in the earlier days.

Good luck! Hope the YT adventure goes well.

 

[StepheK]

YouTube video would be nice. Prolly one straight off the phono pre-amp or receiver would be the easiest. Straight into camera or phone, if possible.

It took some trial-&-error for me get mic recording off speakers to sound simliar to what I was hearing live. It's crazy how room acoustics really sound different on a recording, than what you hear live. Usually, for the worse.

BTW... I find that YouTube's MP4 format sounds pretty good. Not the compressed sound that plagued the site in the earlier days.

Good luck! Hope the YT adventure goes well.

I gave up trying to reproduce what my system sounds like in my house on video. The source listened to on my computer always sounds better that the same source playing on my system and recorded, even with a nice sure mic and/or the build in mics on my Tascam. It in no way sounds like it does in person.

 

[Mr Boochie]

I gave up trying to reproduce what my system sounds like in my house on video. The source listened to on my computer always sounds better that the same source playing on my system and recorded, even with a nice sure mic and/or the build in mics on my Tascam. It in no way sounds like it does in person.

You can get kinda close. It takes a bit of trial-&-error. I found the biggest factor is the mic, their placement, and room acoustic panels.

Stop, Look, Listen (To Your Heart)..
Off "The Stylistics." AVCO Records. SWG-7557. Victor Musical pressing (Japan) . 1972.
Run-out : Ⓑ AV 33023AⓈ 1 11* S

Every Kinda People.
Off Robert Palmer's "Double Fun." Island Records. ILPS 9476. Santa Maria pressing. 1978. Run-out: 1S ILPS 9476A-RE TM/JR B2

Mic'ed off system. You can hear a motorcycle with loud mufflers outside the house taking off, in the lead-in (around 0:04).

 

[StepheK]

You can get pretty close. I found the biggest factor is the mic, their placement, and room acoustic panels.

Stop, Look, Listen (To Your Heart)..
Off "The Stylistics." AVCO Records. SWG-7557. Victor Musical pressing (Japan) . 1972.
Run-out : Ⓑ AV 33023AⓈ 1 11* S

View attachment 2853197

View attachment 2853198

That looks like way more effort that I want to put into it. I'll stick to DIY amp building and China amp review/mod videos

 

[Mr Boochie]

That looks like way more effort that I want to put into it. I'll stick to DIY amp building and China amp review/mod videos

Thanks! It was a challenge. But, I kinda like doing this. It's a nice learning experience, totally different than building an audio system or repairing amps. I had the mics (great matched AKG C414) from my days of recording guitars & amps in a friend's home studio. So, I know a little bit about mic placement. and experimenting with room acoustics.

Some of my first recordings were SO BAD. It was like listening to the system from inside a tunnel far from the source. Peashooter, no imaging, no separation of instruments and/or vocals from each other. Flat, uninteresting. Kinda embarrassing. Like, "Hey guys! This is the great vintage system I restored. Doesn't it sound so second-class bad?"

BTW... I try to record late at night, to avoid loud motorcycles. Plus, electricity is more stable late at night.

 

[StepheK]

I had the mics (great matched AKG C414) from my days of recording guitars & amps in a friend's home studio.

This is what I keep telling folks "demanding" I include demo videos of my amps/work, you are starting with $2600 worth of microphones and have experience setting up a recording studio like environment. I have one $100 mic make for PA use and a tascam recorder. My feeble attempts sound 10 times worse than the source material, which on my system, any of them, obviously in person sound way better than a downloaded YT approved music track played on my computer speakers.

I do wonder what people expect to hear different from the source material listened in the same way as the 'recorded from a system' version. Shouldn't they sound the same if everything is right?

 

[Mr Boochie]

This is what I keep telling folks "demanding" I include demo videos of my amps/work, you are starting with $2600 worth of microphones and have experience setting up a recording studio like environment. I have one $100 mic make for PA use and a tascam recorder. My feeble attempts sound 10 times worse than the source material, which on my system, any of them, obviously in person sound way better than a downloaded YT approved music track played on my computer speakers.

I do wonder what people expect to hear different from the source material listened in the same way as the 'recorded from a system' version. Shouldn't they sound the same if everything is right?

Hey! Thanks, for responding. I haven't really gotten to chat about the process. It's been a kinda steep learning curve. Much trial and error.

Yeah. The mics cost me $1K in the1990s, matched pair --- which was a big deal in those days, as not that much stereo was recorded without the use of mixing software (which would fix unmatched mics). But, in my experience good mics eliminate much of the variables in recording. There really is no substitute. One of the best investments I ever made. Think of it like good cartridges in a phono setup.

I have one suggestion... try close mic'ing your speakers. This helps to eliminate all the bad room acoustics and audio timing issues that make some recordings sound so bad. The advantage of studio mics is that you can stick the darn mics right next to the speakers and it won't overload. You have to really crank the amp to get distortion. If you try that with your phone and you prolly need to lower the volume of the system. Record and listen to the file. Try this and that, then listen. You'll find that placement can make a huge difference.

I don't think absolute sound should be the objective of amateur uploading of songs. I shoot for a good enough upload to do relative comparisons of songs, LPs, speakers, whatever. So that the recording itself is not a big variable in the comparison. I believe that even with a moderately good mic, like an Audio-Technica AT2020 or AKG P420 --- you can get pretty consistent recordings. Consistency is the goal, not perfection (IMHO).


The mic to speaker distance I've been using, in the latest recordings. Mic sound panel is from B&H cameras. They have a lot of A/V equipment for recording video.

 

[StepheK]

Record and listen to the file. Try this and that, then listen. You'll find that placement can make a huge difference.

I can see how trying to record a system and get the recording to sound like the original file is a fun exercise. But then you could just film the system and upload the original file to play with it. It's not like you can record a file played on a tube amp, and then play that on a SS amp and all of a sudden your SS amp sounds like a tube amp. Or that you are gonna hear detail you couldn't hear playing the original file, from a recording of a system that does bring out details in music.

I told my viewers: I'm not spending $3000 on recording gear to try to record a higher end system for you to review on your computer speakers...

 

[Mr Boochie]

I can see how trying to record a system and get the recording to sound like the original file is a fun exercise. But then you could just film the system and upload the original file to play with it. It's not like you can record a file played on a tube amp, and then play that on a SS amp and all of a sudden your SS amp sounds like a tube amp. Or that you are gonna hear detail you couldn't hear playing the original file, from a recording of a system that does bring out details in music.

I told my viewers: I'm not spending $3000 on recording gear to try to record a higher end system for you to review on your computer speakers...

Okay! It's all cool. I was not trying to be a curmudgeon here and push anything down your throat. Really!

And I am not saying that YOU specifically HAVE to record anything. I'm just showing everyone what my setup is.

I know there are limitations. Really, there is going to be differences between everyone's systems. I was more or less attempting to show relative differences between my LPs and cartridges, keeping the system and recording method constant in the videos --- that's all I can do. For sure, I am not saying that
you have to own specific brands of anything. Or use specific types of recording equipment. Just showing examples. For sure, my techniques and equipment have their flaws, too.

If one can keep his/her recording constant, so that it is not part of the variable of what is being heard on a video --- that's all one needs to do for comparison's sake. It doesn't have to be a $3K (or $3M) setup.

BTW... I like to use headphones when comparing any audio I hear on the Net. My computer speakers are not very good.

Anyhow, thanks for the inquiry. I'll try to keep my personal weird opinions and peccadilloes out of the threads. Forgive me for this one sin!

 

[StepheK]

Anyhow, thanks for the inquiry. I'll try to keep my personal weird opinions and peccadilloes out of the threads. Forgive me for this one sin!

View attachment 2853981

Not at all. I'm honestly curious if you can actually hear differences in lets say a phono cartridge or interconnects or the other stuff people post videos of. I've listened to a few A-B videos of things like that and the poster was adamant it was a night and day difference, they sounded the same to me.

 

[Aerobat]

Not at all. I'm honestly curious if you can actually hear differences in lets say a phono cartridge or interconnects or the other stuff people post videos of. I've listened to a few A-B videos of things like that and the poster was adamant it was a night and day difference, they sounded the same to me.

Check this out if you want to play with effective mass. https://1drv.ms/x/s!AtSvXRovgyx_gcwTiJpFQBQiT70CIQ?e=w5qBvc

 

[BillWojo]

@StepheK , I'm not getting into the cable argument but cartridges I can assure you there are major differences.
There are 2 places that you can hear differences in a system that folks don't argue about, both are mechanical transducers, they are speakers and cartridges. I can clearly hear the differences between stylus types as well.
Now power cords on the other hand........

BillWojo

 

[Mr Boochie]

Not at all. I'm honestly curious if you can actually hear differences in lets say a phono cartridge or interconnects or the other stuff people post videos of. I've listened to a few A-B videos of things like that and the poster was adamant it was a night and day difference, they sounded the same to me.

I definitely hear differences in LPs. I've kept all hi-fi components the same. Just to demo the quality of the mastering and engineering of albums. Really just to post tunes.
Like these two Dusty Springfield examples. They are both well engineered, though I feel that the original pressing in better than the 2009 re-pressing.

Sorry for the lead-in noise on the re-master. Vinyl damage. And the motorcycle taking off in the background at 1:16 of the 1967 pressing.

That's why I try to record later at night --- less background noises.

Look Of Love. EMI-Colgem Clarity Classic 45RPM. CR 5005-12. Jack Clegg engineered. Bernie Grundman remaster. 2009

Look Of Love. Off "Casino Royale Soundtrack." Colgems Records. COSO-5005. Indianapolis pressing. 1967.
Run-out: I UZRS - - 4047 - - 3S A2

 

[PioneerFreq]

I'm not sure if the Pioneer pn 5mc is LO or HO.

I would think its high output at 2.2mV, its so high that I actually use my MM stage.

What really blows my mind is the sound from the cheaper Mitsubishi linear TT I have.

 

[Mr Boochie]

I'm not sure if the Pioneer pn 5mc is LO or HO.

I would think its high output at 2.2mV, its so high that I actually use my MM stage.

What really blows my mind is the sound from the cheaper Mitsubishi linear TT I have.

I really like the Mitsubishi line. Overlooked and under-rated.