Fluance RT85 ...Ortofon Blue?

[bambino]

Hi all, I’m really wanting to get a Fluance RT85 but I’m worried that the Ortofon Blue might not be warm enough. Some folks hate it and say it’s even less warm than a CD. Any thoughts?

 

[benricci]

It’s a perfectly fine cartridge. You’ll never know what you like without listening to it, though. I had one for a while and it sounds best on clean records.

That said, it you want something that tracks better, handles inner groove distortion better, reduces surface noise, sounds a bit more “warm” and costs about $100 less, pick up a Nagaoka MP110. I can’t recommend it enough. It’ll pair nicely with that table.

 

[Crab33]

I have the 2M Blue in the form of the 40th Anniversary Concorde and I like it. I wouldn't say it's warm but it's not bass-shy either. I find it has great dynamics and good deal of bass punch. I'm not sure how it will perform on the Flaunce - as an almost high-compliance cartridge (20cu), it's an odd choice for the Fluance's high-mass arm (27.5g). Also, if you want to keep the treble down, I think it would be wise to keep within the recommended capacitive load (150-300pF).

Can you buy the Fluance without a cartridge? I think the high-mass arm is a bit limiting of cartridge choice, to be honest.

 

[Fritz411]

Understanding he's not everyone's cup of tea, I really enjoy Ian's reviews. He kind of lays Fluance to waste here (in the nicest way possible)

 

[Final_Baton]

I've heard needle drops of the 2M Blue recently(but never heard it on a TT that was in front of me, so take this with a grain of salt), and I thought its sound was fine except for one thing : there is, to my ears, a severe dip in a narrow band of it's midrange somewhere (probably high mids is my guess), and personally it drives me mad and for sure it would cause me listening fatigue after a while. just listening to it even for a bit, hurts my ears.

It's a shame though cause I thought it had nice detail and a good, clean "CD" like sound (CD through a warm-ish sounding DAC, that is). But maybe what I described above is not an issue for everyone though, we all hear different. I just personally couldn't roll with that cartridge, but there's many, many happy 2M blue owners out there

Just thought I'd throw that out there, to give a wider perspective to the analysis of the 2M Blue's sound

 

[Final_Baton]

Here's a shootout of the 2M Blue vs the Nagaoka MP-110. The Nagaoka is really warm, so of course the 2M Blue here offers kind of a shocking contrast in comparison. But I don't believe it's that sterile sounding, it just appears that way cuz the MP-110 is so warm and fat in comparison.

ALso the Nag might be better suited for a cold sounding SS rig, and the Ortofon better suited to a warm tube rig.

 

[Jim Creek]

Understanding he's not everyone's cup of tea, I really enjoy Ian's reviews. He kind of lays Fluance to waste here (in the nicest way possible)

I enjoy Ian’s reviews as well. But, honestly, both carts sound good enough, a little difference in presentation is all.

 

[Frank Sol]

another variable

how adjustable is your phono pre ?

phono pre settings can really help (change) the sound of any cart

 

[justjed2]

I ran a 2M Blue exclusively for about 6 years, on my second stylus now. Never thought it sounded too cold or sterile, but I have a tube hybrid pre-amp, so that helps. I also have a SS pre-amp, and it sounds good on that as well. I do think the sound is more system dependent than some carts. You might like it, you might not. But if you don't, it won't be because there's anything wrong with the cartridge. And the only way to find out is to listen to it.

 

[Crab33]

I chose A in the above A/B test - 2M Blue.

I tried the MP-110 and it seemed to be sensitive to capacitive load. With a low load (pre-amp 50pF), it sounded warm but pretty flat, even dull - strange as it has a low recommended loading. I found it needed a higher load (pre-amp 220pF) to bring it to life - much sweeter sound but no longer warm. This is sort of the opposite to the 2M Blue, for which it might be desirable to keep the capacitive load down.

 

[bambino]

Sorry I’m new to all this...what is capacitive load?

It seems like there’s so much that’s subjective here that I might as well just grab a fluance and see how it goes. The ease of changing carts is one of the selling points.

Recently bought a U Turn custom and hated the sound. Plus the tracking force was set massively heavy and I don’t like the idea of having to unscrew a things and get a sensor to adjust. Also the motor pulley wobbled and made a ton of noise.

I’m thinking the Fluance is one of the all around best bets for my price range ($500). If I don’t like the Ortofon blue I can sell it and get a nagaoka or something like that.

FWIW, I’ll be connecting it to a 1970s Onkyo TX-2500 receiver with Sansui sp-30 speakers.

 

[justjed2]

I think the RT-85/2M Blue combo is quite a bargain, and you'll probably enjoy it immensely with the rest of your gear.!

 

[Crab33]

Sorry I’m new to all this...what is capacitive load?

It seems like there’s so much that’s subjective here that I might as well just grab a fluance and see how it goes. The ease of changing carts is one of the selling points.

Recently bought a U Turn custom and hated the sound. Plus the tracking force was set massively heavy and I don’t like the idea of having to unscrew a things and get a sensor to adjust. Also the motor pulley wobbled and made a ton of noise.

I’m thinking the Fluance is one of the all around best bets for my price range ($500). If I don’t like the Ortofon blue I can sell it and get a nagaoka or something like that.

FWIW, I’ll be connecting it to a 1970s Onkyo TX-2500 receiver with Sansui sp-30 speakers.

Capacitive load... There is an electrical property called capacitance (let's not bother about what it actually is). When you connect a turntable to a phono-stage, the phono-stage has capacitance and the cables have capacitance. You add the capacitances together to get the total presented to the cartridge pins, which is the capacitive load. It can affect the way the cartridge sounds (its frequency response) and cartridge manufacturers often publish a recommended range of capacitances for a particular cartridge (e.g. 150-300 pF). The main way you can control the capacitive load for your cartridge is to choose a phono-stage with a suitable capacitance - some phono pre-amps have adjustable capacitance. I hope that's a reasonable explanation.

You probably know that even if you get the Fluance, there'll be some set-up and adjusting. Of course, you'll initially have to set up the arm but I assume the cartridge is pre-aligned. Then, if you choose to change the cartridge, you'll have replace the cartridge, set up the arm again and then align the cartridge.

Indeed, it might be worth buying the Fluance, see how it goes and take it from there. That's part of the fun of turntables.

 

[bambino]

Capacitive load... There is an electrical property called capacitance (let's not bother about what it actually is). When you connect a turntable to a phono-stage, the phono-stage has capacitance and the cables have capacitance. You add the capacitances together to get the total presented to the cartridge pins, which is the capacitive load. It can affect the way the cartridge sounds (its frequency response) and cartridge manufacturers often publish a recommended range of capacitances for a particular cartridge (e.g. 150-300 pF). The main way you can control the capacitive load for your cartridge is to choose a phono-stage with a suitable capacitance - some phono pre-amps have adjustable capacitance. I hope that's a reasonable explanation.

You probably know that even if you get the Fluance, there'll be some set-up and adjusting. Of course, you'll initially have to set up the arm but I assume the cartridge is pre-aligned. Then, if you choose to change the cartridge, you'll have replace the cartridge, set up the arm again and then align the cartridge.

Indeed, it might be worth buying the Fluance, see how it goes and take it from there. That's part of the fun of turntables.

Yeah, that’s a great point. I’m learning to embrace the process of it all, the endless little customizations along the way, instead of thinking of building a hifi system as making a couple simple purchases and being done with it.

I’m assuming my 70s Onkyo has a built-in phono pre-amp. Don’t know about adjusting it...I doubt it. Do people ever use an external pre amp AND a receiver that has phono input already in order to further refine and customize the experience.

Wow, this is turning out to be quite a rabbit hole, but a fun one

 

[Crab33]

Yeah, that’s a great point. I’m learning to embrace the process of it all, the endless little customizations along the way, instead of thinking of building a hifi system as making a couple simple purchases and being done with it.

I’m assuming my 70s Onkyo has a built-in phono pre-amp. Don’t know about adjusting it...I doubt it. Do people ever use an external pre amp AND a receiver that has phono input already in order to further refine and customize the experience.

Wow, this is turning out to be quite a rabbit hole, but a fun one

The Onkyo receiver will certainly have a built-in phono-stage (wired to the "Phono" input) but I doubt that it has selectable capacitance. The manual for the receiver may specify the capacitance of the phono-stage (but probably not). Yes, you can use a separate phono pre-amp between the turntable and receiver, but you need to connect the pre-amp to another input (not "Phono"), otherwise the signal would end up going through two phono-stages. People use a separate phono pre-amp for various reasons - for an improvement in quality over the built-in one, to have adjustable loading or because they want to use a Moving Coil cartridge (the built-in phono-stages are often only for Moving Magnet/Iron cartridges). I would first use the built-in phono-stage and later decide whether you want a separate one.

 

[Dave3009]

I think you got a poorly set up and QC'd Orbit (which I understand is rare). Did you talk to their customer support? I've had mine (custom, acrylic platter and 2M Blue for about a week and love it. The tracking force came a bit on the light side (1.6 g) but within spec. I increased it to the recommended 1.8 g The motor and pulley is silent, speed spot on by my strobe. I assume the Fluance has a rotoating counterweight with gram markings. You still have to balance it and what makes you so sure the markings on the counterweight are accurate?If you want to get +/- 0.1 g accuracy then you need some kind a tool to measure it.

 

[bambino]

So I went with the Fluance RT85. Just got it set up today and it’s sounding great. Going to get a thing to measure tracking weight but for now it seems good.

So many people complain about the high tone arm mass but, again, I couldn’t justify spending $1000 plus right now and the Fluance seems to blow away everything else at its price point.

The Ortofon Blue also doesn’t sound as cold as some seem to think. It probably helps that my Onkyo TX2500 is a fairly warm receiver. I would like to try out a Nagaoka MP110 when I can afford one, though.

People say you can’t adjust VTA on the Fluance but I guess there are still enough cartridge options?

I do wish the bass were a little more pronounced, but a different cart might change that. Also I don’t know if my Onkyo receiver and sansui sp 30’s necessarily have the punchier bass anyway.

All in all, it seems like a good start for a system I can gradually adjust and modify over time. I’m glad to be getting into the world of hifi. Thanks for all your takes and advice. Will post pictures soon.

 

[Crab33]

Thanks for the update - I'm glad it worked out and you're enjoying the Fluance.

I found the 2M Blue (in my Concorde version) to have not an abundant bass but very punchy bass, so bass transients like drums are handled well. I guess it's possibly that the high-mass arm is taking some of the punch out of it. You could reduce the arm-mass slightly by using a lighter headshell. Also, your Onkyo receiver has a damping factor of only 40 - my (modern) Yamaha amplifier has a damping factor of 240. I think the damping factor has a bearing on dynamics, especially in the bass - I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong. Those old Sansui speakers may be limiting the dynamics too.

I wouldn't consider the MP-110 to be an upgrade from the 2M Blue, but it will be different. You may be better trying a separate phono pre-amp as the next step and playing with capacitive loading. This would also be useful if you're going to try different cartridges with different requirements.

 

[wushuliu]

I do wish the bass were a little more pronounced, but a different cart might change that. Also I don’t know if my Onkyo receiver and sansui sp 30’s necessarily have the punchier bass anyway.

Remember you need to give the cartridge time to break in. The cantilever will need time to flex and relax. Bass should improve over time.

 

[bambino]

Remember you need to give the cartridge time to break in. The cantilever will need time to flex and relax. Bass should improve over time.

yeah I forgot about break in time. Thanks!

The point above about capacitive load and damping raises a good point. For the time being (and current budget) there’s only so much I can do. Was the Fluance a good choice? Is this system (onkyo tx2500, sansui sp30s, Fluance TT) a decent match up?

I’m totally new to this and my only hifi experience before was playing my records on my parents’ fancy stereo that they had already gotten together before I was born. so, I really appreciate the advice. I’m still in the return period for the TT if it was a bad decision. Is the tone arm mass a dealbreaker?

Should I ha e just spent a little more and gotten a pro-ject or something? What would be better and still under $1000?

Thanks for the help.