Fluance RT85 ...Ortofon Blue?

[Crab33]

I may be shouted down for this, but I don't think you can expect great things in terms of dynamics from your 70s Onkyo receiver and 60s Sansui speakers, even though they look very charming. For example, your speakers only have a power handling of 20 Watts, which probably doesn't give much headroom for transients that briefly demand more power. More modern equipment tends to be more powerful and dynamic.

That's a good point about allowing the stylus to break in. Ask yourself whether you enjoy using the Fluance and whether you're happy living with the sound, at least for a while. As an alternative for under $1000, one of the better quality clones of the Technics SL1200 comes to mind (the real thing would be too expensive, although a used example may be an option). You could also dip your toe into the vintage turntable waters - perhaps a nice refurbished Japanese turntable from the 70s.

Anyway, I get the feeling your receiver and speakers may be holding back the sound of the Fluance. Have you tried playing CDs through your vintage system - if so, how do they sound compared with the turntable? Also, have you listened to the Fluance through headphones rather than the speakers (might be a way of determining whether the speakers are the weakest part of the chain).

 

[bambino]

I may be shouted down for this, but I don't think you can expect great things in terms of dynamics from your 70s Onkyo receiver and 60s Sansui speakers, even though they look very charming. For example, your speakers only have a power handling of 20 Watts, which probably doesn't give much headroom for transients that briefly demand more power. More modern equipment tends to be more powerful and dynamic.

That's a good point about allowing the stylus to break in. Ask yourself whether you enjoy using the Fluance and whether you're happy living with the sound, at least for a while. As an alternative for under $1000, one of the better quality clones of the Technics SL1200 comes to mind (the real thing would be too expensive, although a used example may be an option). You could also dip your toe into the vintage turntable waters - perhaps a nice refurbished Japanese turntable from the 70s.

Anyway, I get the feeling your receiver and speakers may be holding back the sound of the Fluance. Have you tried playing CDs through your vintage system - if so, how do they sound compared with the turntable? Also, have you listened to the Fluance through headphones rather than the speakers (might be a way of determining whether the speakers are the weakest part of the chain).

Thank you!!! I hooked my iPhone up to the amp and listened to a similar jazz track and noticed the same thing. Most noticeably I. Jazz, bass lines seem much quieter than piano and trumpet and other higher sounds.

The vinyl-ness of the Fluance is very nice and I’ve liked it so far Some have said that $500 for a TT is dumb and just go up to $700-$1000 but I don’t know what to think.

the Onkyo-Sansui combo has a WONDERFUL sound quality but I think you hit the nail on the head...the dynamics are where it’s not the strongest. When listening at louder volumes the bass is lest likely to get lost and it all has a better balance (dynamics?). I think this isn’t the best system for extremely nuanced quiet listening.

Another thing could be that my standards were set high by listening to my parents’ system: a quite high end receiver from the eighties, B&O turntable that has long since died (RIP), and very large Pioneer speakers from 1969.

Maybe I should have gotten a more powerful system, but I guess I’m doing all right for what comes to a total of about $900. ($500 Fluance, $175 Onkyo, and $200 sansui speakers). I probably overpaid a little for the speakers.

should I be investing in a better turntable for when I have a more powerful system? I guess I could always integrate the sansui speakers in with a more powerful receiver and additional speakers. The onkyo receiver is probably nice for a small bedroom setup such as it is.

 

[mprince]

If it sounds good, enjoy it and don't overthink things. Regarding the turntable, give yourself some time to listen to it before you start second-guessing yourself.

 

[Crab33]

I wouldn't worry too much about the price of the turntable - you should be able to enjoy a $500 turntable. OK, build quality may not be what it was in the 70s but this kind of budget should buy you a decent sound source.

I would have thought the Onkyo/Sansui combination would be more problematic at high volume, when it may sound congested. I wouldn't use the Sansui speakers with a more powerful amplifier. The Onkyo is rated at 27 Watts per channel and I assume this is RMS - if so, it may deliver up to around 40 Watts pc at peak power. So, this is already too much for your 20 Watt speakers, not that it will be doing this at average listening levels. The beauty of separates is that you can upgrade one component at a time and I would upgrade the speakers before the receiver. Look for speakers that have a much higher power handling (more than 50 Watts), are around 8 Ohm impedance and are fairly efficient/sensitive (sensitivity preferably at least 90dB). It's also wise to audition speakers before you buy (but not always possible).

 

[bambino]

I wouldn't worry too much about the price of the turntable - you should be able to enjoy a $500 turntable. OK, build quality may not be what it was in the 70s but this kind of budget should buy you a decent sound source.

I would have thought the Onkyo/Sansui combination would be more problematic at high volume, when it may sound congested. I wouldn't use the Sansui speakers with a more powerful amplifier. The Onkyo is rated at 27 Watts per channel and I assume this is RMS - if so, it may deliver up to around 40 Watts pc at peak power. So, this is already too much for your 20 Watt speakers, not that it will be doing this at average listening levels. The beauty of separates is that you can upgrade one component at a time and I would upgrade the speakers before the receiver. Look for speakers that have a much higher power handling (more than 50 Watts), are around 8 Ohm impedance and are fairly efficient/sensitive (sensitivity preferably at least 90dB). It's also wise to audition speakers before you buy (but not always possible).

By loud I meant louder than quiet, I should clarify. I have no need to turn it up really loud in my room. I haven’t heard any crowding or distortion so I’m thinking it’s fine at the levels I’ve been listening. But yes upgrading the speakers at some point or making them an A or B with something else perhaps?

I wonder if the onkyo puts out enough watts for a small subwoofer. I love the sound quality but could use a somewhat more distinct bass. Again, not trying for massive volume.

I’ve read that it’s better for the receiver to be more powerful than the speakers lest you risk clipping - that’s assuming of course not turning it up past the speakers’ capacity I guess.

 

[wushuliu]

If you are new to speakers then yeah it's probably the speakers are the weakest link if they are that old. Usually someone with speakers that old are using them for a specific reason or setup so know what to expect. Have the speakers been serviced recently? Or are they using the same crossover parts? If those have not been replaced/upgraded then forget about the turntable for the moment and focus on that. 50 year old speakers with 50 year old caps ain't gonna sound great.

 

[Crab33]

By loud I meant louder than quiet, I should clarify. I have no need to turn it up really loud in my room. I haven’t heard any crowding or distortion so I’m thinking it’s fine at the levels I’ve been listening. But yes upgrading the speakers at some point or making them an A or B with something else perhaps?

I wonder if the onkyo puts out enough watts for a small subwoofer. I love the sound quality but could use a somewhat more distinct bass. Again, not trying for massive volume.

I’ve read that it’s better for the receiver to be more powerful than the speakers lest you risk clipping - that’s assuming of course not turning it up past the speakers’ capacity I guess.

Again, the speakers may be limiting the bass - try with good-quality headphones as an alternative to the speakers. This may give you some idea about the sound balance of the speakers.

I'm not sure how to connect a sub-woofer to a 70s amplifier. If you've got B speaker outputs, perhaps these could be connected to a passive sub-woofer. Or perhaps the output from the tape loop could be connected to an active sub-woofer. Others will have to advise on this.

There shouldn't be any harm in using speakers with a higher power handling than the peak power output of the amplifier - I imagine this is the most common case. You can also use speakers with power handling a little under the peak power of the amp, as the amp rarely goes there. It's important that the amp has enough power to drive the speakers. Speakers used to have minimum power requirements quoted in their specs, so you were supposed to use an amplifier with at least this power output (often quoted as an RMS value). However, if you're using a low-powered amp (which you are, by today's standards), you should be sure to use sensitive speakers, so that the most is made of the Watts available - the sensitivity is measured as the sound level in dB at 1 metre from the speaker when 1 Watt is delivered to the speaker. A sensitive/efficient speaker will have a figure of 90dB or higher.

 

[MCM_Fan]

If you are new to speakers then yeah it's probably the speakers are the weakest link if they are that old. Usually someone with speakers that old are using them for a specific reason or setup so know what to expect. Have the speakers been serviced recently? Or are they using the same crossover parts? If those have not been replaced/upgraded then forget about the turntable for the moment and focus on that. 50 year old speakers with 50 year old caps ain't gonna sound great.

Replacing those 50-year old electrolytic caps will clean up the highs, but will do nothing for the lack of bass the OP is experiencing. The woofers in those little SP-30s run wide open, so the caps, new or old, will not effect the bass response.

Honestly, giving the OP's complaint about a lack of bass, recapping, or even adding a subwoofer seems like throwing good money after bad. Even review I have read about the Sansui SP-30s specifically mentions a lack of bass. In my own personal experience, even larger Sansui models with 12" woofers from that area are bass shy (and his have 6.5" woofers). My best advice to the OP is to sell the SP-30s and get a better pair of speakers that will meet his needs.

 

[MCM_Fan]

By loud I meant louder than quiet, I should clarify. I have no need to turn it up really loud in my room. I haven’t heard any crowding or distortion so I’m thinking it’s fine at the levels I’ve been listening. But yes upgrading the speakers at some point or making them an A or B with something else perhaps?

I wonder if the onkyo puts out enough watts for a small subwoofer. I love the sound quality but could use a somewhat more distinct bass. Again, not trying for massive volume.

I’ve read that it’s better for the receiver to be more powerful than the speakers lest you risk clipping - that’s assuming of course not turning it up past the speakers’ capacity I guess.

The speakers are the weak link for want you want to achieve. They are known to be lacking in bass. Nothing you can do will really fix that. You definitely overpaid for them (live and learn), but my advice would be to sell them for what you can get (probably 1/4 - 1/2 what you paid) and put that money toward something that will better meet your needs. Do your research before buying. Ask general questions in the Speakers subforum, or just read some of the threads there. If you prefer the vintage look, there are lots of affordable models that will sound good, look nice and have way better bass than your Sansui SP-30s.

But, this is the turntable forum, specific recommendations are best discussed in the Speakers subforum.

I'll also advise you to list your general location in your profile. Speakers are heavy and bulky to ship, prices and availability vary by location and it's always, always best to listen before buying. If something locally catches your eye, and you're not sure about the price, start a thread in the Dollars and Sense subforum and include all the specifics (even a link to the listing - which is allowed there, but not here). I'm sure with a little help, you can find a great deal on a pair of speakers that will better suit your needs.

 

[lokerola]

I own both the 2m blue and MP-110. I prefer the 2m, but you really can't go wrong with either one. They're both very good carts. I've used them both on my $300.00 Denon DP-300F table and enjoyed the music immensely with both.

 

[bambino]

Yeah, got a little off topic. My bad. But that helps thanks!

 

[MCM_Fan]

Yeah, got a little off topic. My bad. But that helps thanks!

No problem. It's all related. You now have a better table/cartridge and want to get the most out of it.

I recommend you read this thread: Your Favorite 8 inch 2-Way Speakers

Lot's of good recommendations. No need to necessarily limit yourself to 8" woofers. Many of the same brands were available with 10" or 12" woofers, but this will give you a good starting point of some brands and models to consider. Then you can start checking to see what's available locally, and if you have a question about price/value, start a thread in Dollars and Sense.

 

[bambino]

I guess the two things that worry me most about the Fluance are:
-tonearm mass
-can’t adjust vertical tracking angle

I’ve read these two factors limit the kinds of carts I can use with it. How would I find out which ones work?

Also, even with the same speakers and receiver as compared to my iPhone there is a certain harshness to the sound, mainly noticeable in orchestral strings and vocals. Does this ease up as the cart gets broken in?

should I have gone for a Pro-Ject instead?

 

[Crab33]

I guess the two things that worry me most about the Fluance are:
-tonearm mass
-can’t adjust vertical tracking angle

I’ve read these two factors limit the kinds of carts I can use with it. How would I find out which ones work?

Also, even with the same speakers and receiver as compared to my iPhone there is a certain harshness to the sound, mainly noticeable in orchestral strings and vocals. Does this ease up as the cart gets broken in?

should I have gone for a Pro-Ject instead?

You do seem to be fretting over this purchase.

Regarding the vertical tracking angle, I imagine you're concerned that the arm height isn't adjustable. I think you'll find it isn't adjustable on most turntables.

The arm mass is a bit extreme, in my opinion, and it will limit your choice of cartridge. The 2M Blue is in theory a poor match and I wouldn't use a cartridge of any higher compliance with this arm, but there are plenty of less compliant cartridges. You could buy a lighter headshell to reduce the mass a little, but you'd probably only reduce it by a few grams.

The harshness you talk about may be for a number of reasons...

• It may reduce after break-in - some people believe a stylus needs 20-30 hours of use before it settles down, although I haven't noticed much change after 5-10 hours.

• The capacitive load may not be appropriate for the 2M Blue. Its recommended range is 150-300pF. Now, the cables of the Fluance account for 90pF (it's in the specs). If the phono-stage in the Onkyo were to have a capacitance of 220pF, which is a common figure, your total capacitive load would be 310pF (or a little higher taking into account the arm wires). This may make the treble a bit more forward than intended. A separate phono pre-amp with adjustable capacitance would allow you to experiment with capacitive load.

• It could be the records. Have you compared the same recordings from vinyl and digital sources? I have found the 2M Red and 2M Blue to be quite detailed for the money, perhaps because of a bit of a treble lift. They tend to expose any edginess in the recordings or pressings.

Perhaps you need to experience alternative cartridges. This is quite easy with the Fluance, as the headshell is a standard detachable SME-type. So you can buy spare headshells for alternative cartridges, but you'd need to rebalance the arm etc for each one. You could start off small - there is a cartridge called the AT3600L which is very cheap and only has a conical stylus, but many people love it (there is a long thread about it on AK). You can even get it already installed in a headshell on eBay. And it likes heavy arms! So you could start off with this one.

 

[bambino]

You do seem to be fretting over this purchase.

Regarding the vertical tracking angle, I imagine you're concerned that the arm height isn't adjustable. I think you'll find it isn't adjustable on most turntables.

The arm mass is a bit extreme, in my opinion, and it will limit your choice of cartridge. The 2M Blue is in theory a poor match and I wouldn't use a cartridge of any higher compliance with this arm, but there are plenty of less compliant cartridges. You could buy a lighter headshell to reduce the mass a little, but you'd probably only reduce it by a few grams.

The harshness you talk about may be for a number of reasons...

• It may reduce after break-in - some people believe a stylus needs 20-30 hours of use before it settles down, although I haven't noticed much change after 5-10 hours.

• The capacitive load may not be appropriate for the 2M Blue. Its recommended range is 150-300pF. Now, the cables of the Fluance account for 90pF (it's in the specs). If the phono-stage in the Onkyo were to have a capacitance of 220pF, which is a common figure, your total capacitive load would be 310pF (or a little higher taking into account the arm wires). This may make the treble a bit more forward than intended. A separate phono pre-amp with adjustable capacitance would allow you to experiment with capacitive load.

• It could be the records. Have you compared the same recordings from vinyl and digital sources? I have found the 2M Red and 2M Blue to be quite detailed for the money, perhaps because of a bit of a treble lift. They tend to expose any edginess in the recordings or pressings.

Perhaps you need to experience alternative cartridges. This is quite easy with the Fluance, as the headshell is a standard detachable SME-type. So you can buy spare headshells for alternative cartridges, but you'd need to rebalance the arm etc for each one. You could start off small - there is a cartridge called the AT3600L which is very cheap and only has a conical stylus, but many people love it (there is a long thread about it on AK). You can even get it already installed in a headshell on eBay. And it likes heavy arms! So you could start off with this one.

Ah, yeah I meant tracking angle. That’s a relief. Yeah, the comparison of turntables is an endless rabbit hole and if the consensus is the Fluance is a decent option I’m inclined to stick with it and experiment with carts rather than return it and keep trying other turntables. It’s just weird that my iPhone sounds warmer through the same setup in some ways. Maybe it’s just that the cart isn’t to my preference? Could the Ortofon be accentuating sibilance?

 

[Crab33]

Ah, yeah I meant tracking angle. That’s a relief. Yeah, the comparison of turntables is an endless rabbit hole and if the consensus is the Fluance is a decent option I’m inclined to stick with it and experiment with carts rather than return it and keep trying other turntables. It’s just weird that my iPhone sounds warmer through the same setup in some ways. Maybe it’s just that the cart isn’t to my preference? Could the Ortofon be accentuating sibilance?

Sibilance (due to mis-tracking) is a common complaint with the 2M Red but not so much with the 2M Blue. I have actually found both to be pretty reasonable in handling sibilance (although I have the Concorde edition of the Blue). If you're getting excessive sibilance, it might be worth checking the alignment, although there are different alignment schemes and you probably don't know which one Fluance used for their turntable. If you're talking about sibilance actually in the recording/pressing, any treble lift of the cartridge will accentuate it.

Here is something else to think about, as you keep hankering after a Pro-ject turntable as an alternative. Here are the effective masses of the arms of some of their main models:

Carbon Debut 6g
Essential III 8g
X1 10g
RPM 1 Carbon 13.5g
RPM 3 Carbon 16g

Anything below 11g is classed as low-mass, and low-mass arms need high-compliance cartridges. You can put less compliant cartridges on them, but there is a risk that they will sound bass-light (which is what you want to avoid). There isn't a wide choice of high-compliance cartridges on the market nowadays, most being medium-compliance. So, many of the (low-mass) Pro-ject arms could be considered restrictive of cartridge choice in the opposite sense that you are worried about with the Fluance. Also, the Pro-jects have fixed headshells, so changing cartridge is not as easy as with detachable SME-type headshells and regular cartridge swapping is almost out of the question.

 

[MCM_Fan]

Is the effective mass of the Fluance tonearm really 27.5g? That is incredibly heavy for a modern (or any) tonearm. Perhaps that figure includes the weight of the cartridge and mounting hardware, but even including that, it's still pretty darn heavy. For comparison, most vintage Japanese s-shaped tonearms have an effective mass in the 12 - 16g range, including the wight of the original headshell.

 

[Crab33]

Is the effective mass of the Fluance tonearm really 27.5g? That is incredibly heavy for a modern (or any) tonearm. Perhaps that figure includes the weight of the cartridge and mounting hardware, but even including that, it's still pretty darn heavy. For comparison, most vintage Japanese s-shaped tonearms have an effective mass in the 12 - 16g range, including the wight of the original headshell.

It is a bit bizzare. The cartridge specs and tonearm specs are listed in separate sections, although the headshell weight is actually included in the cartridge specs, so it's a bit mixed-up.

https://www.fluance.com/rt85w-refer...rntable-natural-walnut#content-Specifications

The headshell mass is 9g, which is actually not high, so a lighter headshell would probably only shave a couple of grams off.

The counter-weight mass is quoted as 102g but I don't know whether this is unusually high, as I've never weighed one.

It's also worth noting that the RT82, which appears to have the same arm as the RT85 in the photos, is quoted as having a lower effective arm-mass of 21.78g.

 

[bambino]

Sibilance (due to mis-tracking) is a common complaint with the 2M Red but not so much with the 2M Blue. I have actually found both to be pretty reasonable in handling sibilance (although I have the Concorde edition of the Blue). If you're getting excessive sibilance, it might be worth checking the alignment, although there are different alignment schemes and you probably don't know which one Fluance used for their turntable. If you're talking about sibilance actually in the recording/pressing, any treble lift of the cartridge will accentuate it.

Here is something else to think about, as you keep hankering after a Pro-ject turntable as an alternative. Here are the effective masses of the arms of some of their main models:

Carbon Debut 6g
Essential III 8g
X1 10g
RPM 1 Carbon 13.5g
RPM 3 Carbon 16g

Anything below 11g is classed as low-mass, and low-mass arms need high-compliance cartridges. You can put less compliant cartridges on them, but there is a risk that they will sound bass-light (which is what you want to avoid). There isn't a wide choice of high-compliance cartridges on the market nowadays, most being medium-compliance. So, many of the (low-mass) Pro-ject arms could be considered restrictive of cartridge choice in the opposite sense that you are worried about with the Fluance. Also, the Pro-jects have fixed headshells, so changing cartridge is not as easy as with detachable SME-type headshells and regular cartridge swapping is almost out of the question.

Wow. Good to know. I’m feeling a lot more confident in my decision. Thanks for bearing with all my questions. There’s a lot to learn here.

 

[Thud3]

So, Bambino, I think the Fluance RT85 is an underrated bargain. I have one.
Much of this thread is really about the cartridge.
What really matters the most about a cartridge, in my opinion, is whether or not it can reproduce from 20-20K Hz, can follow the groove without rattling around, and has a reasonably flat frequency response.
What matters most about a TT is whether or not it can reliably spin your vinyl at consistent speed (wow, flutter) , without excessive transference of motor noise or other acoustic interference.
The RT85 does those things, so don’t regret your purchase. Play it and enjoy it.
Each component in a system will add “color” to the audio painting you ultimately experience, including your own ears ( the last component). Then your mind decides what sounds best.
Sometimes more expensive is not better, it’s just different.
Don’t forget to have fun along the way.