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Hana EL or EH?

F

fedocable

New Member
This is, I hope, a simple question. After reading lots of positive reviews, I've decided to go with a Hana moving coil cartridge. I still need to choose between the EH (high output) and EL (low output) models. My phono preamp is a Pro-ject Tube Box II, with these (fixed) specs for MC:

Input impedance MC: 100ohms /120pF
(while Input impedance MM: 47kohms /120pF)
Gain MC: 60 dB
Output voltage (typically) MC: 0,3 mV

While these are the specs for the cartridges:

Recommended load impedance: EL: >400 ohms; EH: 47k ohms
Output level at 1kHz: EL: 0.5mV; EH: 2.0mV

Up until now I've used a (now deceased) Denon DL-304, with a 0.18mV output, without complains. So I know the 60dB gain of the Project are good enough for the EL -which, I guess, would be the better option in terms of sound quality. But, and this is my doubt, what about the impedance? Keep in mind I cannot change the loading of my preamp.
Any help will be warmly welcome.

PS: Or, else, should I just go with a Denon DL-301 mk2?
 
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100 ohms is pretty standard for an MC input; it handles a wide range of 'recommended' loads. I have a preamp and an integrated with 100 ohm MC stages and they sound 'just right' with nearly a dozen LOMCs, all different. Loading isn't that critical — I wouldn't 'settle' for a lower-SQ cartridge for this reason.

I haven't hear either Hana; reviews all favor the low-output. And in my experience, no HOMC is as good as an equivalent LOMC — I base this on the 4 or 5 HOMCs I've had.
 
Thanks for the feedback, bimasta. To be honest, I don't understand at all how impedance works in this case, but I got discouraged by a review (the-ear.net) according to which "the low output Hana needs an impedance of 500 Ohms and no less if you want to enjoy the higher notes and full dynamics". If that's strictly true, then I'm quite far away. Do you think that's an overstatement?
 
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I'd grab the LO version as bimasta recommended. I do think the review is an overstatement. The one thing in this hobby that allows me try many different cartridges is knowing there is a huge secondary market if I buy something I don't like I know I can move it somewhere else. Here or elsewhere, without losing much in the transaction. Just keep all the doo-dads that come with the cartridge. Buyers like that stuff. Good luck.
 
I would get the Low as well, ideally you would load it at 300 ohms (using the 10x guideline) as a starting point, but I'd bet it will still sound sweet at 100 ohms.
 
@fedocable Others have the same view as I offered. I checked the review you cited. You're a new member here, maybe fairly new to audio, I don't know. I used to place great weight on reviews, but that was a bygone age (1980s). There were only a few magazines, ranging from low/mid- to hi-end; and only a few reviewers. Some of those reviews were authoritative.

Now, with hundreds of websites, all starving for content, it's hard to judge their validity. One gauge: how many bad reviews do they publish? Check their reviews of other things, even if you have no interest: do they ever trash a product?

Then consider the product. Hana, for example, launched their range with an advertising blitz. Ads everywhere I looked, and they're still advertising, so of course I was curious. But Advertising costs money, money that doesn't go into the product.

I got the feeling much of that Hana review was taken directly from Hana's literature; copy/paste is easier than writing — then change a few words so it's not too obvious; and add more words, the more the better because they're paid by word-count. The line you quote — "the low output Hana needs an impedance of 500 Ohms and no less if you want to enjoy the higher notes and full dynamics" — struck me as just such an addition: it implies you'll have unenjoyable high notes and dynamics, which is just ignorant.

All of which leaves consumers in the lurch: who/what to believe, when the mags (online or onpaper) are marketing arms? If the site is free, how do they make money?

AK is a better bet these days. But here you get very subjective opinions (we tend to like our own stuff), and you don't know which, if any, other cartridges the 'reviewer' knows, unless he names them and his 'test methodology'.
 
This is all very interesting. I've also looked at the Hana cartridges. My proposed phono stage for this is my Parasound ZPhono USB, which has specs similar to fedocable's Pro-Ject. The input impedance for lo-output MC is fixed at 100 ohms. On another turntable I'm using a Schiit Mani with various MM carts. The Schiit Mani's MC impedance is fixed at 47 ohms, which Schiit claims is "typical" for MC. But I've found very few MC carts with recommended impedance that low. I sent an email to Schiit Audio for clarification, and I only got an non-committal non-answer -- "That's what our engineers decided." So I'm left to decide: how much does it matter?
 
fedocable said:
Do you think that's an overstatement?
Click to expand...
Probably.
bimasta said:
I got the feeling much of that Hana review was taken directly from Hana's literature; copy/paste is easier than writing — then change a few words so it's not too obvious; and add more words, the more the better because they're paid by word-count. The line you quote — "the low output Hana needs an impedance of 500 Ohms and no less if you want to enjoy the higher notes and full dynamics" — struck me as just such an addition: it implies you'll have unenjoyable high notes and dynamics, which is just ignorant.
Click to expand...
Yes, that seems to me like quite a dogmatic statement. With a 100 ohm load you'll get 1.8dB less output than with a 500 ohm load, assuming the specified 30 ohm coil is accurate. Will there be any change in tonal balance or dynamics? If there is I'd expect it to be subtle rather than dramatic, though I must admit I have no direct experience of that cartridge.
As has been mentioned above, 100 ohms is a very common load impedance on mc phonostages and I'm sure there are people all over the world using Hana cartridges with a 100 ohm load.
 
rothwellaudio said:
As has been mentioned above, 100 ohms is a very common load impedance on mc phonostages and I'm sure there are people all over the world using Hana cartridges with a 100 ohm load.
Click to expand...

Please forgive my ignorance. Assuming a phono stage provides 100 ohms impedance for MC, is there a way, maybe with special plugs between the cables from the turntable and the input jacks of the phono stage, to raise the impedance to the optimal value?
 
I believe the low output Hana has a Shibata stylus. If so, VTA adjustment of your tonearm could be critical for best performance. If you can't adjust the tonearm VTA, then consider the high output cartridge, which I believe, has an elliptical stylus.
 
homebrew said:
I believe the low output Hana has a Shibata stylus. If so, VTA adjustment of your tonearm could be critical for best performance. If you can't adjust the tonearm VTA, then consider the high output cartridge, which I believe, has an elliptical stylus.
Click to expand...

I believe Hana offers 4 cartridges: high-output EH (elliptical) and SH (shibata) and low-output EL and SL.
 
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The high output Hana's have an elliptical stylus (regardless of model) and the low output carts have the Shibata stylus. So my recommendation remains the same.
 
mprince said:
I thought there were 6 models:. EL & EH (both elliptical), SL & SH (both Shibata), and the new ML & MH (both Microline). At least that's what's on all the online retail sites...
Click to expand...
I hadn't looked recently so didn't know about the Microline models. Thanks for the info - 6 models then.
 
Calypte said:
...is there a way, maybe with special plugs between the cables from the turntable and the input jacks of the phono stage, to raise the impedance to the optimal value?
Click to expand...
Yes and no. Yes, if the input impedance of the phonostage is 100 ohms you could raise it to 500 ohms simply by putting 400 ohms in series with the input. However, 4/5ths of the signal would be dropped across the 400 ohm resistor instead of appearing at the inputs of the phonostage, so you would lose 14dB of signal and end up with a very poor signal-to-noise ratio.
Hence yes and no. Yes, you could do it - but no, it wouldn't be a good idea.
 
rothwellaudio: Thank you for your comments. Let me ask this: Let's say an MC cart has a recommended load of >100 ohms. Why not just use 47k?
 
bimasta said:
@fedocable All of which leaves consumers in the lurch: who/what to believe, when the mags (online or onpaper) are marketing arms? If the site is free, how do they make money? AK is a better bet these days. But here you get very subjective opinions (we tend to like our own stuff), and you don't know which, if any, other cartridges the 'reviewer' knows, unless he names them and his 'test methodology'.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot, bimasta; you called me back to my senses. It's rather easy to get lost in the labyrinths after 48 hours of non-stop internet browsing -we all know that dark tunnel here, I'm sure. I agree with your view on audio websites or magazines; and I gather one reads those professional reviews mainly looking for reassurance, but when it comes to making choices we tend to trust much more in our fellow audio enthusiasts.
A couple of things I've realized from this discussion:
1) Perfect impedance match between cartridge and preamp is absolutely not a sine qua non. But it may be the case with these bloody Hana. Take a look at the answer I got in another forum: "the Hana's are greatly effected by impedance , more than any other cartridge I have used. My tube pre only went to 300 ohms and the Hana SL I had tried sounded like crap. I tried adding a step up transformer that had a 500 ohm winding but it still sounded bad. I ended up just selling the SL. So yes, they need the 600 ohm loading."
2) If I'm going with an MC cartridge, it will be a low output one. (But not as low as the DL-304 again).
3) Most of the great opinions about Hana come, indeed, from professional reviewers. The number of actual real-world opinions and praising about them is insignificant compared to, say, what you may find about Denon or AT cartridges.
This is why, on second thoughts, I'm starting to think that the Denon DL-103r (or maybe the DL-301 mkii) would be a much wiser choice in my case -I had ruled it out merely based on one of those reviews! Another interesting candidate would be the Nagaoka MP-200. According to the passionate Ian from HiViNyws (youtube) it's a hell of a cartridge -he actually made a long review comparing the lesser MP-150 with the Hana EL, and declared the former to be better in almost all respects.
 
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fedocable said:
Thanks a lot, bimasta; you called me back to my senses. It's rather easy to get lost in the labyrinths after 48 hours of non-stop internet browsing -we all know that dark tunnel here, I'm sure. I agree with your view on audio websites or magazines; and I gather one reads those professional reviews mainly looking for reassurance, but when it comes to making choices we tend to trust much more in our fellow audio enthusiasts.
A couple of things I've realized from this discussion:
1) Perfect match impedance between cartridge and preamp is absolutely not a sine qua non. But it may be the case with these bloody Hana. Take a look at the answer I got in another forum: "the Hana's are greatly effected by impedance , more than any other cartridge I have used. My tube pre only went to 300 ohms and the Hana SL I had tried sounded like crap. I tried adding a step up transformer that had a 500 ohm winding but it still sounded bad. I ended up just selling the SL. So yes, they need the 600 ohm loading."
2) If I'm going with an MC cartridge, it will be a low output one. (But not as low as the DL-304 again).
3) Most of the great opinions about Hana come, indeed, from professional reviewers. The number of actual real-world opinions and praising about them is insignificant compared to, say, what you may find about Denon or AT cartridges.
This is why, on second thoughts, I'm starting to think that the Denon DL-103r (or maybe the DL-301 mkii) would be a much wiser choice in my case -I had ruled it out merely based on one of those reviews! Another interesting candidate would be the Nagaoka MP-200. According to the passionate Ian from HiViNyws (youtube) it's a hell of a cartridge -he actually made a long review comparing the lesser MP-150 with the Hana EL, and declared the former to be better in almost all respects.
Click to expand...
I went through the exercise late last year of selecting a LOMC cartridge that would match my arm (Jelco 750D) and my phono-pre (Lounge Audio Pre and COPLA step-up). I determined I needed a cartridge that required 100 ohms or less impedance in order to get a decent amount of boost from my COPLA step-up. For that reason, I rejected the Hana models in spite of many favorable comments and a very appealing price for a LOMC. In the end, I chose the Ortofon Quintet Black S. I am using it withe the COPLA set to 50 ohms of impedance. I am very happy with this choice.
 
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