cecaa850
Well-Known Member
He's suggesting that you're not reproducing the entire audio spectrum using Heresys and no sub. Yes, you are missing something. That being said, your way is not wrong for you if you enjoy what you're hearing.
Heresy advice please...
- Thread starter RFP
- Start date
He's suggesting that you're not reproducing the entire audio spectrum using Heresys and no sub. Yes, you are missing something. That being said, your way is not wrong for you if you enjoy what you're hearing.
I never said you were Wrong or Ignorant. My point was that your are choosing to IGNORE the bass that you choose not to reproduce as a matter of choice. Not a dig on your lack of knowledge, which I can't possibly know based on a few words here on this forum. I stand by my point about Objectivity of bass. Subjectively and Objectively, I disagree with your choice of limited Audio band width and don't care what you do. It's your personal choice, not a fact.
“You simply are ignorant… ”.
cecaa850
Well-Known Member
Being ignorant of what you are missing is different than being called ignorant.
I said "You are simply ignorant of WHAT YOU ARE MISSING" How convenient of your to truncate my quote to garner (sympathy, support, what?). Lying by omission is what the government does, not speaker dudes with truncated readings.
RFP
Active Member
Bringing this thread back from the abyss.
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My son picked up the Heresys and they are now playing happily in his Denver home. He is absolutely delighted with the sound, describing it as being more 'alive' and more 'detailed' than the JBLs he has had for years. He called last night and said he is going to live with them 'as is' for a while before deciding about adding supplemental subs. Good plan.
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As for the disagreement going on here, I think it's better to be kind than to be right. I'm grateful to all who pitched in here to answer my question, everybody's input helped.
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My son picked up the Heresys and they are now playing happily in his Denver home. He is absolutely delighted with the sound, describing it as being more 'alive' and more 'detailed' than the JBLs he has had for years. He called last night and said he is going to live with them 'as is' for a while before deciding about adding supplemental subs. Good plan.
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As for the disagreement going on here, I think it's better to be kind than to be right. I'm grateful to all who pitched in here to answer my question, everybody's input helped.
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Everyone hearing is a little different, everyone's system is different, everyone's listening room is different, everyone's taste in music is different. Some like subs, some don't. All that matters is, are you enjoying the music. I listen to mostly jazz and have dual subwoofers in my den system. But now that I've gotten Heresy's for the shop system, I'm not sure I need them, and if I turn them into supper heresy's, will I really need one? Time will tell.
Heresy's from 40 years+ ago are reasonably flat to 70 Hz. The Super Heresy is flat to about 50 Hz. while giving you much better midrang/midass detail. It's the woofer and the port working together. Personal taste will dictate sub or no sub.
Coytee
Super Member
Rhetorical question.....would a sub, benefit from a sub? After all, a sub is a speaker, isn't it?
Back in the day, when I had my EV Interface D's, I N.E.V.E.R. felt ANYTHING was missing. Their -3 db point is/was 28Hz and would hit that at (if I recall correctly) 106 db's. They would really shake the foundation of your house.
There's "perfect" sound.... then there is every day incredible.... they may not have been perfect but day in, day out, they left little to be desired. Really turned the wick up when I hit A+B on my Yammie receiver (CR-2040) and turned both EV's and LaScalas on. LaScalas spent their time punching you in the chest and the EV's spent their time shaking the foundation. It was a great mix together, if you didn't mind....ahem.... slightly less imaging.....
(take above, add in a dbx subharmonic synthesizer and 3bx and the sound is enhanced even more)
Sgt Shultz
Addicted Member
Gigantic
A big, big love
Before I got my H700s 16 years ago, I was adamantly anti-subwoofer- the speakers that I’d had to that point, notably a pair of infinity sm120‘s and a pair of Peavey horn-loaded pa speakers had more than adequate low end response and up until then, I’d only heard subs with either Bose systems or bass heavy Cerwin Vega style systems- either way, they sounded awful in my estimation. Then I got my heresies… I didn’t know anything about Klipsch speakers, only that they had a reputation for sounding good, but the lack of bass response was disappointing. Ultimately, I decided that I just couldn’t get in with them, but I couldn’t even give them away, they kept coming back like a bad penny. Fast forward to this summer and I decided to restore them: I recapped the networks and replaced the woofers- certainly, that would yield dramatic improvements, right? Well, sort of, but not really. Midrange definition and clarity improved, but the bottom end, we’ll, frankly, it sucked. This time, however, I had a subwoofer in my bedroom studio to augment a pair of near field monitors- I added that and I got a taste of the Klipschhead koolaid. Much, much better! I was so chuffed with the sound that I decided to go all in on @ClaudeJ1 and @Daveintn ‘s vaunted Super Heresy mods, which were better yet! Still, even as good as the extension is on the Super Heresies are, they still benefited from subs, so I got a pair of them. With the crossovers set around 45Hz and attenuated just so you barely notice them, the sound is incredible. Even better still are the subs with the H700‘s atop them, next to the Super H‘s!
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You keep the imaging and reduce Intermodulation Distortion, which is the reason Paul W. Klipsch won a Silver Medal of Honor from the Audio Engineering Society. He was right then, and he's even more "right" today. No speaker manufacturer EVER specifies their IM distortion, which is always 100 to thousands of times higher than any amplifier.
Telling the whole truth would be bad for sales. So it's ignored.
Coytee
Super Member
This thread got me thinking.
Question (since we’re on the subject of subs with Klipsch; many apologies if this is considered derailing): I have modified Klipschorns with stock woofers. They are sealed to corners on the long wall in a room 20’ x 15’ x 10’ H. They are not installed in perfect/symmetrical corners—in that, except on one side, I don’t get the required full 4’ of completely uninterrupted walls on each of all four sides. I know I would benefit from subs (although I recently had an audiophile friend over who assured me “bass is not your problem”).
Any suggestions for very shallow, small-footprint, attractive walnut(?) subs that could sit directly in front of the KHorns, and that would add noticeable, worthwhile bass? They could also be installed directly under the Klipschorns in the basement (floors are just old, porous, wide-plank pine). I’m not looking for MWMs/MCMs. And unless my income changes, I won’t be getting Jubilees anytime soon.
My issue is WAF. She has come to love/accept the Klipschorns. Not sure I can extend too far out in front of them. Coytee? ClaudeJ1? Thanks, anyone.
—Kurious with a K.
Question (since we’re on the subject of subs with Klipsch; many apologies if this is considered derailing): I have modified Klipschorns with stock woofers. They are sealed to corners on the long wall in a room 20’ x 15’ x 10’ H. They are not installed in perfect/symmetrical corners—in that, except on one side, I don’t get the required full 4’ of completely uninterrupted walls on each of all four sides. I know I would benefit from subs (although I recently had an audiophile friend over who assured me “bass is not your problem”).
Any suggestions for very shallow, small-footprint, attractive walnut(?) subs that could sit directly in front of the KHorns, and that would add noticeable, worthwhile bass? They could also be installed directly under the Klipschorns in the basement (floors are just old, porous, wide-plank pine). I’m not looking for MWMs/MCMs. And unless my income changes, I won’t be getting Jubilees anytime soon.
My issue is WAF. She has come to love/accept the Klipschorns. Not sure I can extend too far out in front of them. Coytee? ClaudeJ1? Thanks, anyone.
—Kurious with a K.
Sgt Shultz
Addicted Member
Why not custom build sub bass bases for the K-horns to sit on
Excellent suggestion. But how high would it have to be; and could it match the KHorn footprint? I wonder if anyone out there has attempted/succeeded at such a sub; and how far down it would go.
Big-L
Member
Be sure to add lots of ketchup....
No on my Heresy's...or for that matter my steak..lol
Sgt Shultz
Addicted Member
I would think 8" high the size and shape of the K-horns front slotted would work.
Coytee
Super Member
Disclosure: I am NOT to be considered any kind of expert (nor "vaguely knowledgeable" on subwoofers)
That said, your operative word here is 'worthwhile". In my opinion, the answer is NO (given your criteria...small footprint, shallow.
My thinking is this. You have Khorns. VERY articulate bass but not the deepest. If you mate them with some dynamic driver subwoofer, it's going to give you some "mush-a-boom" when it's doing its thing. I once heard the KP-600's outdoors. I had previously heard them INdoors.... when they were indoors, I was gobsmacked at how the hairs on my arms were vibrating. When I heard them outside, a bit louder.... I felt I could hear the blubber of the two (18" I think) direct radiator subs that were under each stack. The rest of the speaker was horn loaded.
My thoughts are you need to start from the bottom-up. You want horn loaded subwoofer (which means it's going to be big) horn woofer, blah blah.... if you have to go away from horns, then you can do that higher up because it's the lack of distortion that the horn brings you......what distorts the most? Yep, bass driver, or sub driver. So that is what benefits the most by being horn loaded.
The first 10'ish years of my owning LaScalas, I didn't know subs existed. Finally, maybe 1990, I learned about them and started looking around.
NOTHING I heard at that time (and I understand things have evolved over the last 30 years).... but nothing I heard at that time would:
1. KEEP UP with the LaScalas (same issue you'd have with Khorns with traditional subs of that smaller size)
2. As articulate as the LaScala (same issue you'd have with Khorns if you used dynamic radiators verses horns)
So, my opinion which is nothing more than that.... "if you want to do it right" the only way to do it is with a horn loaded sub and there's no way that's going to be small, WAF acceptable, inexpensive, blah blah blah"
Or, I could just circle back to your question and say "no" without all the color commentary!
Good news is, you COULD put many different subs in front of your Khorns! so you win on that question!!!