How do you find the right amplifier - speaker match

[bulletim3]

Hey folks,

I recently had an interesting experience and wanted to share this with you all to try and make sense of things and perhaps better understand how amplifier matching works.

I currently use a pair of Sansui SP-X9000 and Acoustic Research M3 as my main listening speakers. I usually switch between them depending on mood but generally prefer the bigger/fuller sound of the Sansui. I also have a pair of Acoustic Research M1 speakers stored away.

I use a Marantz PM300 to power the speakers but was on the lookout for something with a little bit more grunt. Eventually I picked up a Teac A-H500, which has a little bit more power and is apparently really well designed/built (based on reviews).

Excited I plugged the Sansui into the Teac amp and I was utterly disappointed. The sound seemed dull and somehow incomplete compared to the Marantz. Confused and disappointed I plugged the AR M3 into the Teac and was surprised to hear these speakers sing. I spent several hours switching between the speakers with no change in results even after messing with EQ and speaker positioning. Lastly, I tested the Teac with my AR M1 speakers and had similar results as the AR M3, they paired well and the sound was full, rich and dynamic.

From my experience I can only assume that the Teac is simply not a good match for my Sansui speakers but somehow the Marantz is? I've read another thread on here about amplifier speaker matching and it seemed like trial and error is the only way? What would be a good match for the Sansui in this case? Do I need amplifiers from a similar era as the speakers for them to sing and sound good? Or could I get good results with a modern amp on a vintage pair of speakers like my Sansuis? Gosh, even if a pairing sounds great, how do I know if there is a better match out there? (this last one is obviously a rhetorical question haha)

Some additional info on the gear I used:

• Sansui SP-X9000, 4 way, 6 driver, ported, 25Hz to 23kHz, Sensitivity: 98dB, 8 Ohms, year 1978
• Acoustic Research M3, 3 way, 3 driver, sealed, 53Hz to 20kHz, Sensitivity: 90dB, 4-8 ohms, year 1991
• Acoustic Research M1, 2 way, 2 driver, sealed, 65Hz to 20kHz, Sensitivity: 88dB, 4-8 ohms, year 1991
• Marantz PM300, 30 watts @ 8 ohms, 15Hz to 50kHz, THD 0.04% year 1979
• Teac A-H500, 50 watts @ 8 ohms, 5Hz to 80kHz, THD 0.03%, year 1997

Thanks

 

[JoeESP9]

Speaker wattage ratings are pretty much useless and worthless.

You can safely use just about any amplifier with most any speaker as long as you pay attention to the sound. If the speaker sounds strained turn down the volume. If the amplifier sounds strained turn down the volume. No other admonition as necessary.

If you're interested in how good an amplifier is, check the 4 Ohm power rating. The closer it is to double the 8 Ohm rating the better (usually) the amp.

 

[Hoytis]

Yeah, it's somewhat of trial and error to find the best pairing. But there are some specs to pay attention to along the way. I'm not sure why the Sansui speakers fell so short. But those speakers have extremely high sensitivity, and the Teac frequency response is really broad. Perhaps it's just a bit much for those speakers. I bet a low wattage tube amp (modern or vintage) would pair really nicely with the Sansui's.

 

[doctor fuse]

Wow, if those Sansui really are as sensitive as that (98dB!) then I would try a Single Ended tube amp! Or even a good PP design. I bet a decent tube amp would make them sing!

 

[maxhifi]

I have a pair of Sansui SP-X11000 and find them to be very sensitive to amplifier pairing. I think it is because of the crazy multi driver design, and the fact that the impedance goes a low lower than the nominal 8 ohms which Sansui quotes. It could just be that the Marantz is a better sounding amp than the Teac. You know what you'd really enjoy is hooking those Sansuis up to a G series Sansui receiver... preferably a big one like say the G7000. Or a Sansui 9090. It would take them to a whole new level.

Also consider that the Sansui speakers will sound their best with some service work (i.e. crossover capacitors)

 

[twiiii]

With a 90 db rated speaker listening to one speaker the output at 10 ft listening distance is appox. 80 db. Average folks seldom play their systems over 85 db continuous with professionals and folks exposed to periodic live performances listening with average levels of 90 db. So to reach 85 db you need about 4 watts per channel, for 90 db 10 watts, The issue becomes peaks. POP music either on CD or LP the normal peak levels you need 5 times more power. If you listen to classical music the requirements may double again or 10 times the power. So any where from 20 to 40 watts for average folks and possibly 100 watts for others. I have some recordings by Sheffield and Telarc where the peaks can require 4 to 6 times even more power. Of course stereo systems have two speakers but they don't fully support each other. They can and they cannot. So you can see where you can run out of power real fast. I seldom reach over 60 watts per channel with my speakers rated at 88 db sensitivity. But once in a while the rare 120 to 150 watt peak on a Telarc recording with sound effects comes along. Thats why I have 480 watt per channel amps that will put out over 600 watt peaks.

The difference between 150 and 600 watts is only 6db.

 

[timofred]

synergy !
it's not on the spec sheet.

 

[justjed2]

Your ears will tell you more about whether a particular amp/speaker combination will be pleasing than any specifications. Specs are great for comparisons, and judging relative compatibility,
but can tell you nothing about how something sounds, and even less about whether or not YOU will like it...

 

[hopeless]

As many have said, specs won't help you here. At all. Even sensitivity specs are suspect, rather generous in most cases.

Amps, speakers, and sources are typically noted to bright, neutral, or dark. You want to avoid a dark/dark or bright/bright combo.

To make things really easy, all brights and darks are the same. Then, it might take a few combos to figure things out

 

[twiiii]

Then how come when I was servicing consumer audio equipment in the 60's and 70's I made very good money because people to didn't follow the specifications of their equipment when spending their hard earned money. They were either blowing up the amps or speakers because the amps were under powered or destroying their HF drivers. Or they would spend gobs of money on big power amps and still blow up their speakers. All it took was a little education by the dealer and for the customer to take heed. Today without Brick and mortar stores and professionals selling audio equipment its even more hazardous for the hifi consumer. Yes listening tastes make a huge difference but you have to know what it takes to meet those goals and with out education the chances of reaching your goals are a crap shoot. So educate your self. It will save a lot of money in the long run and bring you many hours of satisfaction and freedom from worry or dissatisfaction!

 

[Akustic]

Every amp sounds different than every other amp ..

You are most likely listening to amp differences, and differing speaker sensitivities, not synergy ..
It's fairly difficult to get an idea of an amp's sonic character without a lot of comparison between differing components and differing speakers in your system.

What you're describing is exactly what I was remembering about the TEAC amps ..
Completely forgettable products .. unlike their Tape Decks, which was their main product, some of which were truly fine machines.
Those amps weren't on many short lists ...

Speaker sensitivity specs were mostly a product of the manufacturers imagination in those days also .. especially the Japanese manufactures at that time ..
They kept re-upping each other until their spec became meaningless.
Look around and see if you can find an independent non-manuf. sensitivity spec on the Sansui speakers.

Depending on the topology of the amp there often isn't much difference between 30wpc and 50 wpc ratiings. A lot depends on the amp's power supply, and the load that the speaker is presenting..

 

[bulletim3]

If you're interested in how good an amplifier is, check the 4 Ohm power rating. The closer it is to double the 8 Ohm rating the better (usually) the amp.

Interesting, does this "ratio" have a name? And why is this ratio important? Does it mean the amplifier will deliver better dynamics or generally just pairs well with most speakers?

 

[Grenadeslio]

a nice 34watt Kenwood KA4006 would be schveet with the Sansuis

 

[bulletim3]

I have a pair of Sansui SP-X11000 and find them to be very sensitive to amplifier pairing. I think it is because of the crazy multi driver design, and the fact that the impedance goes a low lower than the nominal 8 ohms which Sansui quotes. It could just be that the Marantz is a better sounding amp than the Teac.

Thats an interesting observation, I will definitely keep this in mind as I experiment with more amplifiers.

You know what you'd really enjoy is hooking those Sansuis up to a G series Sansui receiver... preferably a big one like say the G7000. Or a Sansui 9090. It would take them to a whole new level.

Hmmm... considering the age of these amps, wouldn't it be better to get something more modern/newer at a similar price point?

Also consider that the Sansui speakers will sound their best with some service work (i.e. crossover capacitors)

Yeah good point, this is something I haven't looked into yet. Added to the to-do list

 

[bulletim3]

Wow, if those Sansui really are as sensitive as that (98dB!) then I would try a Single Ended tube amp! Or even a good PP design. I bet a decent tube amp would make them sing!

Will need to spend some time researching as I have no experience with tube amps. Do you have any suggestions? Someone locally is selling a Bewitch 6550, which seems to have decent reviews... would be an expensive experiment at 1000 Aussie Dollarydoos. I suppose its not the worst if I can resell at a similar price ha.

 

[maxhifi]

Hmmm... considering the age of these amps, wouldn't it be better to get something more modern/newer at a similar price point?

One could say the same thing about the speakers... but yeah sure, I just got the idea you were into vintage gear. I use my Sansui speakers with 1990s vintage audio research tube amps... if you want something new there's all sorts of good amps out there which would work great. Keep in mind though that a new amp which will drive those speakers well and sound good isn't going to be cheap.

One thing you may want to also keep in mind if you think about tube amps, is that while the Sansui speakers are sensitive, they are also not the world's easiest load, so low power low damping factor tube amps aren't the world's best match despite the great sensitivity. On the other hand if you're talking a McIntosh Mc275 or an ARC, etc. it's going to sound stunning. But amps like that are very expensive.

 

[E-Stat]

Sensitivity is but one consideration for speaker matching. What I find to be more important is impedance matching - which for me has always been a challenge since I favor speakers with a reactive load.

I find Stereophile impedance curves helpful in that regard.

 

[bulletim3]

One could say the same thing about the speakers... but yeah sure, I just got the idea you were into vintage gear. I use my Sansui speakers with 1990s vintage audio research tube amps... if you want something new there's all sorts of good amps out there which would work great. Keep in mind though that a new amp which will drive those speakers well and sound good isn't going to be cheap.

You are right, I was just trying to figure out if age of the amplifier would have something to do with good pairing.

One thing you may want to also keep in mind if you think about tube amps, is that while the Sansui speakers are sensitive, they are also not the world's easiest load, so low power low damping factor tube amps aren't the world's best match despite the great sensitivity. On the other hand if you're talking a McIntosh Mc275 or an ARC, etc. it's going to sound stunning. But amps like that are very expensive.

Can I ask how can you tell the Sansui's aren't the easiest load? Is this based on a spec or the number of drivers it had perhaps? (sorry for all the questions - I'm just curious and trying to get my head around things!)

 

[bulletim3]

Then how come when I was servicing consumer audio equipment in the 60's and 70's I made very good money because people to didn't follow the specifications of their equipment when spending their hard earned money. They were either blowing up the amps or speakers because the amps were under powered or destroying their HF drivers. Or they would spend gobs of money on big power amps and still blow up their speakers. All it took was a little education by the dealer and for the customer to take heed. Today without Brick and mortar stores and professionals selling audio equipment its even more hazardous for the hifi consumer. Yes listening tastes make a huge difference but you have to know what it takes to meet those goals and with out education the chances of reaching your goals are a crap shoot. So educate your self. It will save a lot of money in the long run and bring you many hours of satisfaction and freedom from worry or dissatisfaction!

I would love to learn and educate myself, just don't know where to start... and so I have no choice but to ask specific questions and rely on reading posts and doing my own research where possible.

 

[maxhifi]

You are right, I was just trying to figure out if age of the amplifier would have something to do with good pairing.



Can I ask how can you tell the Sansui's aren't the easiest load? Is this based on a spec or the number of drivers it had perhaps? (sorry for all the questions - I'm just curious and trying to get my head around things!)

Based on the spec sheets plus personal experience. The brochures show that the impedance dips under 4 ohms for a big part of the frequency spectrum, although the speakers are rated as 8 ohm loads. This puts a lot of strain on a non robust amplifier. Plus the reactive load of the complex crossover.

IMO part of the bad reputation of Sansui speakers maybe related to the fact that they sound bad with an inadequate amp.

I have had the SP-3005, SP-X8000 and the SP-X11000. The 3005 was great with low powered tube amps, but the other two need an amp with good current delivery and a high damping factor. Actually my 1990s Linn Majik-I is almost ideal for driving them at lower levels. It does 30W into 8 ohms and 60W into 4, almost theoretical perfection. Of course with this kind of speaker, if you have a BIG amp you can get SPL levels which are more or less insane. If you ever get the chance to hook them up to a big Krell or something, you will see what I mean... you will suddenly have the best seats at whatever concert you choose to attend.

I mentioned the sansui amps because these speakers were more or less designed to be paired with sansui amps, so they have all the right criteria. Thinking soberly though it is hard to recommend a 40 year old amp to someone who isn't a tech or a collector, when there's so many fantastic newer options.