Splatter Pak
High-End Scrounger
Up to now, for me, it's just been dumb luck finding the synergy of amp and speaker.
How do you find the right amplifier - speaker match
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
According to Ohms Law an amplifier that produces 100WPC @ 8 Ohms should be 200WPC @ 4 Ohms and 400WPC @ 2 Ohms. This is the theoretical ideal. Very few if any amplifiers match that theoretical ideal. However, the closer an amplifier comes to that ideal the better it almost always is.
Here's a link to a good explanation:
Ohms Law Tutorial and Power in Electrical Circuits (electronics-tutorials.ws)
Most of this is directly related to the power supply section. A better, stiffer, more capable power supply will take you closer to the "double down" power ratings.
One reason this is important is because there are plenty of 4 Ohm rated speakers. Many receivers and regular (not high end) amplifiers have a switch to set the amplifier for 4 Ohm operation. They do this by current limiting the power supply. This is an indicator of a marginal power supply.
The Ohm rating of a speaker is usually only a nominal figure. With an 8 Ohm rated speaker the actual impedance may dip below 4 Ohms at certain frequencies. Some 4 Ohm rated speakers may dip below 2 Ohms at certain frequencies.
Some speakers are easy to drive and work fine with just about any amplifier receiver. Other speakers present a load that many receivers and integrated amplifiers aren't comfortable with. Personally, I choose my speakers first and then acquire the amplifier necessary to drive them to their best. My main choices of speakers (planar magnetics, ESL's) are generally considered to not be receiver/amplifier friendly.
My Acoustats drop as low as 2 Ohms. The Magnepans are an almost true 4 Ohm load but like lots of current.
Past owner of both the 9000 and 11000 Sansui speakers, and they are very sensitive; properly restored it only takes a few watts to make them ring. Problem is that as much as I wanted them to sound good, they just don't. Sat them side by side with a pair of Altec 15 and they got utterly destroyed in the comparison, and I don't even like the Altec 15s that much.
doctor fuse
Super Member
I am still surprised that a 23wpc Push Pull 7868 tube amp powers my custom planar/ribbon speakers with what I perceive as "louder" volume and "better" sound quality than a 120 wpc Solid State Nikko Alpha II.
Since "a watt is a watt", I can only assume the euphonic low order distortion is "filling out" the sound, and making it "sound" louder? Or is there something in a tube design with its output transformers that allows it to send more power for short durations? I am thinking of the power supply in my NAD 3020, which allows it to rival amps two or three times its power rating.
Since "a watt is a watt", I can only assume the euphonic low order distortion is "filling out" the sound, and making it "sound" louder? Or is there something in a tube design with its output transformers that allows it to send more power for short durations? I am thinking of the power supply in my NAD 3020, which allows it to rival amps two or three times its power rating.
Then you know ... and it's a ported box which always helps ..
I just read every audio mag published back then, and the magazines were finding very different sensitivity specs than the Japanese speaker manufacturers were publishing... and a lot of those boxes were sealed and couldn't by design, have remotely what the manufac.'s were claiming.
BilboBaggins
Addicted Member
I suspect a lot of people who don't like Sansui speakers had the same issue you have. BTW, welcome to AK!
I have liked just about every Sansui speaker I've had. But I like low impedance speakers, so I tend to have better and more powerful amplification. However I also have had many speakers, amplifiers, and receivers go through this house. If it doesn't sound good with one piece, I try again until I get that Synergy.
As for the ratio between 4 ohms and 8 ohms, it can be challenging. Many manufacturers don't provide specifications for 4 ohms. Basically, only the better units will supply it, because it won't look good on a cheap amp or receiver. I agree with @Grenadeslio that the Kenwood KA-4006 would sound good with them. I've had great experiences with Kenwood receivers and amps, and I really don't understand why they don't get the respect they deserve. I had a Kenwood KA-4008 for well over a year, and I would have kept it, if I could have separated the amp from the preamp. It could drive every speaker I tried with it, and sound great in the process. Instead, I use a Sansui AU-9900 for testing equipment with. It works for the majority of gear I've tried.
I would suggest going to quality separates, but that's me. I think they are way better. I don't think I have any receivers in the house at the moment.
Agreed, there was lots of truth stretching and downright lying about specs, probably still is; measurement can be pretty subjective. The Sansuis did go very loud on little power, but didn't sound good doing it. Those massive woofers have no extension and don't reach far down or have any authority at all really.
Too many drivers, and of not good enough quality, common problem with japanese speakers of the time. They do look very good next to a good Sansui rack though, which is where their only real value would be to me -- as collectible period objects. There aren't very many of the 11000 speakers out there; their value can only creep upwards regardless of the sound produced.
maxhifi
Addicted Member
When I got the x11000 I was at first disappointed with the sound. After changing amplifiers around and recapping the speakers with poly capacitors, I ended up selling my la scalas because I vastly preferred the x11000. I've heard lots of high end speakers and the non high end x11000 just does it for me - what makes me like them is the huge impact the bass drivers produce, the lack of any boom, clear mids, and the slight sharpness of the horn tweeters. I really enjoy them on movies too, the clarity and impact is fantastic. They sure aren't for everyone though, and I can totally see why someone else might not like them as much as I do.
There isn't a name for it but it is the only spec that gives you an idea of the robustness of the amp's power supply.
The power supply is generally the most expensive part of the amp so it is tempting to skimp...
Speaker loads (impedance) on the amp vary by frequency of the music ... Bass typically requiring the most power ..
An amp which doubles it's power into lower impedances is supplying whatever the speaker needs regardless of frequency ..
An amp which doesn't have the power supply to drive the lower impedance loads is clipping the music at lower impedance and at some very low impedance will either shutdown or cook .. depending on the amp.
..
Most amps can get down to 4 ohms but very few will drive a 2 ohm load ..
Those few amps that double their power into 4 ohms are often the amps which will drive a 2 ohm load.
The reason that doubling is important is because when the load is halved from 8 to 4 ohms the power required to drive it doubles.... It's confusing because lower impedances are actually higher loads (resistances to power)
Oh for sure, audio is really subjective and everyone likes what they like; my likes aren't going to be everyone else's, and vice versa. Keep enjoying the music.
Can't imagine going back to a receiver again; sold most of mine off them last few years, even the monsters. No point in keeping something around you'll never use so I set them free.
131east23
...near Frank's Pizza!
Experiment. If you are on a budget it's tougher, but if you buy quality pieces to experiment with you can always resell and get that money back. Someone once told me that I should start with my speakers and work backwards, and no, I really didn't do that. But I used to have a pair of JBL L112's, JBL L65's, Dynaco A25's, and a pair of Sansui SP 3000's. I could never settle on any of them - The JBL's kind of hurt my ears and the others just seemed so lackluster. I was powering all of these with a Pioneer SX1250. Then I stumbled into a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls for 300 bucks thinking I would flip them and put the profit into the TT fund. I hooked them up and they stayed. I recapped them and put phenolic diaphragms in the horns - no titanium as the JBL's I had were titanium and sounded harsh and shrill to me. Then I sold the other four pair of speakers and bought a tube pre-amp, a tube amp, and eventually lucked into a McIntosh 2105 that sounds great with a tube amp feeding it. If I had tons of money I probably wouldn't have any of these components, but I like the serendipity of it all and I'm actually very happy with the sound I get from LP's when using the Shure V15 III with the MR stylus through these components. So luck, serendipity, and don't be afraid to sell old favored items (the L112's were a Christmas gift from my dad in 1980, and the SX1250 was my dad's and I sold it because I just didn't want a receiver, was tired of its flavor) to bring in new ones to try. I got rid of all of my tone controls and never looked back.
many pro amps will do this but that doesn't make them the best choice sonically, forced air cooling really helps
That said I have to agree, a big robust power supply certainly doesn't hurt
I love pepsi!!! Amp is nice to!!!
many pro amps will do this but that doesn't make them the best choice sonically, forced air cooling really helps
Just helps to make them lighter and better able to withstand being abused for many hours.
not always lighter
80lbs of class A/B power driving the Jamo C-103's as mains in my multi-channel system
not always lighter
Lighter than they would be without forced air cooling.
Thank you everyone for taking the time to answer my questions and sharing your stories. This has been very helpful. There is no doubt I'll be experimenting with different equipment, but now I'm equipped with some knowledge. I will also be relooking at some of the Kenwood amplifiers I had previously considered (KA-5700 and a KA-9100).
I also own a Technics SE-A900S which seems to fall in the "somewhat" decent amps category based on the comments in this thread. I bought the amp knowing it was faulty (distortion issue in the right channel) and so have not been able to try it with my speakers yet. I have already spent some time trying to find the fault but haven't had any luck - will be posting a seprate thread in the DIY forums with all the details later today. (P.S. I'm one of those electronics engineers that never got a chance to get any hands on experince with electronics in the real world. And so I'm trying to use my love for music as a way to learn/get some hands on experience while enjoying this hobby.)
Thanks again!
I also own a Technics SE-A900S which seems to fall in the "somewhat" decent amps category based on the comments in this thread. I bought the amp knowing it was faulty (distortion issue in the right channel) and so have not been able to try it with my speakers yet. I have already spent some time trying to find the fault but haven't had any luck - will be posting a seprate thread in the DIY forums with all the details later today. (P.S. I'm one of those electronics engineers that never got a chance to get any hands on experince with electronics in the real world. And so I'm trying to use my love for music as a way to learn/get some hands on experience while enjoying this hobby.)
Thanks again!
You're welcome ...
But during your experiments do try the Ohm's with a true separate power amp, with a damping factor above 70 ..
Properly powered they are truly unusual and excellent speakers ..
Most of the older Japanese amps and receivers have damping factors below 70 .. which is okay with a ported box system like the ESS,
but doesn't optimally control a sealed box like the Ohm/Walsh.
If you find an amp that's rated above 100 wpc @8 ohms which doubles it's power into 4 ohms and has a damping factor above 70, then you've found an amp for the Ohms.
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my old Kenwood KA-7100 had no issues driving my "sealed" AR 12's all day long at ear damaging levels back in my youth
same goes for my current Kenwood KA-7300 driving "sealed" AR 58's
both with a damping factor of 50, blanket statrments are generally wrong.
The legendary 600 Supreme
Pioneer Spec-2
Stereo Power Amplifier (1976-80)
(1 review)
Description
The Spec-2 is a 250W rack mount stereo power amplifier featuring a current limiter circuit, peak level meters, protection circuit, power switch on/off and impedance selector muting and a temperature detector.
This high power design employs a cascaded differential amplifier first stage, push-pull drive, and darlington triple push-pull circuit with all stages direct coupled (OCL).
Specifications
Power output: 250 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)
Frequency response: 5Hz to 80kHz
Total harmonic distortion: 0.1%
Damping factor: 50
Input sensitivity: 2V
Signal to noise ratio: 110dB
Speaker load impedance: 4Ω to 8Ω
Semiconductors: 55 x transistors, 75 x diodes
Dimensions: 480 x 186.5 x 445mm
Weight: 24.3kg
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