How important is the preamplifier?

[g..v]

A pre amp does provide voltage gain...along with eq for phono stages, and in some cases for both MC and MM cartridges and lets not forget filters for lf and hf noise. Some offering two turnover frequencies for lf & hf. Mono, stereo & even stereo reverse function. Attenuation too. And source selection.

It does provide a wide range of gain, some offering up to around 2v output, others as high as 10v output, along with suitable impedance characteristics.

I'd like to see a passive preamp do all that. They can't. Something passive is not a preamp. I don't know who dreamed up that term. Even something that provides "unity gain" is not passive.

 

[chadnliz]

My view is quit factual rest assured.

The preamplifier provides voltage gain. It is
equipment which switches between line level sources and offers a volume control.

Why don't you tell me exactly what effect on sound a preamp is designed to have? Should it sound like a piano, a baby crying, a flute? What key do preamps attempt to play in?

Please be specific.

To think any preamp should have any affect on sound is IMO short sided and pretty simplistic thinking.

I'm not going to get into the weeds with you and hijack this thred I think you are wrong, you think I am so move along.....nothing to see here. Acting as if choosing a pre that sounds ideal in our individual systems is a flawed idea using flawed products is absurd.

 

[sleeper22]

Interestingly Sleeper, Vitus power amps seem to sound better with Vitus preamps from my experience. My Dealer told me a story about one of his customers who bought an SS-102 and paired it with a tube preamp. He didn't like the sound & ended up selling the amp dirt cheap to his friend. Friend buys the (then) cheapest Vitus pre (SL-010). Guy comes over to his friend's house to have a listen and is blown away by the improvement. That guy ended up buying another SS-102 and VA pre, but lost a lot of doh. Rule of thumb: Vitus sounds best with Vitus. My budget is in SL-102 territory, though I should mention my amp upgrade is mapped out to the end of the year, so actual prices could change.

Your dealer is right. System synergy is very important. I used to have BAT amps and a BAT VK5i preamp. The synergy was fantastic. However, I have mixed preamps and amps from different companies without issue and they sounded great. If it were me I would start with the same company and go from there. This hobby is addicting and puts a HUGE dent in the wallet lol.

I also think cabling as you previously mentioned contributes to the sound more than some people think. Yes thats a can of worms in its own right but trust me I know it makes a difference. I once had several pieces of Mark Levinson gear and there was something missing. It sounded ok but not like it should. I became disappointed and sold off a lot of it. Later on a local buddy of mine came over and asked me several questions. I told him what cabling I had and he said no wonder. I was like you have to be freaking kidding me and he said nope you need to upgrade. Well I did and guess what? My system sounded sooo much better once I rolled in better powercords and interconnects.

 

[Gibsonian]

Thank you for that qualified but honest answer.

1.My next question would be, do you agree that level matched double blind tests make differentiation between two properly working non tube preamps virtually indistinguishable?

2. and that virtually all measurements show any differences so minimal so as to be audibly indistinguishable to human hearing?

3. and lastly, will you agree that the identification of "better" in non sighted tests, as it pertains to our conversation here, is random?

1. I couldn't answer that as I've not seen results of such a test nor have I participated in one.


2. Can't say that I would agree with that one. I see published measurements differ quite a bit from one preamp mfgr/design to another. I believe some of these differences can be heard.


3. Again, have not participated in such a test so I cannot answer that yes or no.


I have had quite a few preamps in my day and can say that there are differences between them that have been audible to me. I have had some very decent gains in sound quality by changing/upgrading preamps, several of them I have recapped to bring them back to spec if they were out. Different topologies provide different sound. I know how it is supposed to be, but empirical data from my experiences says it is an extremely important item to consider in a hifi system.

 

[eljr]

1. I couldn't answer that as I've not seen results of such a test nor have I participated in one.


2. Can't say that I would agree with that one. I see published measurements differ quite a bit from one preamp mfgr/design to another. I believe some of these differences can be heard.


3. Again, have not participated in such a test so I cannot answer that yes or no.


I have had quite a few preamps in my day and can say that there are differences between them that have been audible to me. I have had some very decent gains in sound quality by changing/upgrading preamps, several of them I have recapped to bring them back to spec if they were out. Different topologies provide different sound. I know how it is supposed to be, but empirical data from my experiences says it is an extremely important item to consider in a hifi system.

Thank you again for your honest responses.

 

[Judas Priest]

I´m with eljr on this one. A preamp has the possibility to degrade the sound, but how can it improve the sound?

How is it supposed to change the input signal from a CD player to sound "better"?

 

[Gibsonian]

Maybe what I am hearing (different performance from different preamps) is simply different degrees of degradation or offsets from perfection. However it is done, the results are not the same, which for me makes the preamp a very important component.

 

[chadnliz]

Maybe what I am hearing (different performance from different preamps) is simply different degrees of degradation or offsets from perfection. However it is done, the results are not the same, which for me makes the preamp a very important component.

Dont get conned into thinking if a piece of gear has a different sound its some offset of perfection lol. Everyone hears differently, some are annoyed by a brightness that may be another's interpretation of "honest", there is no right or wrong about how we process what we hear. If I have my thermostat set at 70f and I am comfortable but you thought it was too cold and another thought it was too warm how can I say you are wrong? Yet we see this in audio all the time.....and it gets old.

 

[sleeper22]

Dont get conned into thinking if a piece of gear has a different sound its some offset of perfection lol. Everyone hears differently, some are annoyed by a brightness that may be another's interpretation of "honest", there is no right or wrong about how we process what we hear. If I have my thermostat set at 70f and I am comfortable but you thought it was too cold and another thought it was too warm how can I say you are wrong? Yet we see this in audio all the time.....and it gets old.

Great answer.

 

[sqlsavior]

I think mediocre preamps or line-level circuitry is holding many a system back, and is the as-yet undiscovered weak link for a lot of systems, but that is just my conjecture, I suppose.

My latest two "preamps" are a study in extremes, yet both sound excellent. The preamp section of my Luxman integrated is a delightful abundance of control features, executed with an uncommon level of quality engineering, build, parts, and materials, and yet is very nearly transparent. My Promitheus TVC (transformer volume control) is at the other, so-called purist extreme, with nothing but switches and a 24-tap transformer - no potentiometers, not even a resistor. IME, it is as transparent as anything I am likely to ever own.

Bodhisattva, you are already in a realm where it is personal preference, rather than budget, that determines your choices. So, I would think a choice between pleasingly colored and transparent is what it will boil down to for you. A TVC is a good representative for the "transparent" contender.

 

[JoeESP9]

Some truth to that but Class A is very different from Class D as a quick example. The bottom line is it ALL matters, its the old chain and weakest link rule.

Can I get you to agree that a preamp should have no influence on sound?

I'm not going to get into the weeds with you and hijack this thred I think you are wrong, you think I am so move along.....nothing to see here. Acting as if choosing a pre that sounds ideal in our individual systems is a flawed idea using flawed products is absurd.

I was going to make an extensive post until I read this post. MC and I are in complete agreement. My feelings are based on ~50 years of experience.

I do have one question for MC. When and where did you find a preamp that operates under Class D?

 

[Blue Shadow]

Thank you for that qualified but honest answer.

My next question would be, do you agree that level matched double blind tests make differentiation between two properly working non tube preamps virtually indistinguishable?

and that virtually all measurements show any differences so minimal so as to be audibly indistinguishable to human hearing?


and lastly, will you agree that the identification of "better" in non sighted tests, as it pertains to our conversation here, is random?

Does a test really need to be double blind if there is an obvious sonic difference in a couple of ss preamps? When we listened to a few preamps, one hybrid, one tube and a few ss units the hybrid and tube units sounded very,very close to each other. The ss units were each distinguishable from a mile away and different from each other and the tube units.

The fact that the tube/hybrid units sounded similar is because they were both from the same company and Voicing the equipment is something some companies spend a lot of time and effort to do. Not all companies are looking for a straight wire with gain no matter what the sales pitch says. They are striving for their idea of that straight wire with gain that they believe will sell the way they want it to.

On to the OPs issues. We are mostly in agreement that separates are going to be better overall. We are discussing the issues of 'can anyone really tell a difference' and synergy. But we are forgetting about house sound from manufacturers, sonic preferences of the listener and the ability of an audio chain to provide the best reproduction whether that be synergy or other compatibility issues between components which has been mentioned by the OP. When it all comes together to the listeners likes that is a very good thing. Trying different gear is one of the only ways to find that ideal system.

You seem to be happy with the sound of the VA gear and are concerned with a loss of warmth. One of my golden-eared friends, mine are a nice silver solder mix if I were to guess, talks about wanting a system that is very natural sounding and mentions that I prefer a bit more warmth. I have to agree and one thing we discuss is using a higher resolution component and its effect on the sound of the system as we rotate gear through the main rig, not the one in the signature, when folks come to listening sessions. If you go with the pre/power that has similar sound (VA gear) and it has better power and resolution, I believe you will have enough warmth still in the system as you stated each unit has a nice dollop of warmth and be able to enjoy the increased resolution at your old listening levels and the power when needed.

 

[chadnliz]

I was going to make an extensive post until I read this post. MC and I are in complete agreement. My feelings are based on ~50 years of experience.

I do have one question for MC. When and where did you find a preamp that operates under Class D?

The Class D comment was on regards to amps as an example that different technology sounds different, not about a pre.

 

[c-atle-79bay]

I'm enjoying the heck out of my superphon sp100 passive/buffered pre-"amp".

 

[RickB]

The one thing that no one has mentioned about active preamps is that they provide a buffering action between the source, the volume control, and the amplifier.

Anyone who has messed with resistive based "passive preamps" and different kinds and lengths of cables on a well sorted system will attest to the fact that very careful selection of cables must be performed to get the best performance out of one of these.

Magnetic passives don't have as many constraints on their utilization as the transformers/autoformers provide an impedance buffering of sorts, yet still cabling and cable length can come into play.

Our systems are just that, systems not "kits" as some of our fellows from across the pond seem to infer, and as a system are affected by many parameters...some overt, some subtle...the reactance of the cables figure into the system comprised of the output circuit of the source device working across that cable reactance into the input circuitry of the volume control device.

This in turn is followed by the system comprised of the output section of the volume control device, the cabling, and the input circuit of the amplifier.

Minute changes in the parameters of the cable used to connect a system have an effect on the sound not just due to how the signal flows down the cabling, but how its' constants react with that signal...

An active preamplifier provides a way to minimize the actions of input cable interactions by offering a stable, preferably unchanging, input circuit that will not vary with the position of the volume control knob.

It will also provide a stable output allowing for longer cable runs to the amplifier without frequency anomalies of as great a scale as can be present in passive, resistive based controls.

In other words, you sure don't want to run a 25 foot run from your potentiometer based "passive" to your amplifier(s), with every different position of the volume know you are creating a different tuned circuit that plays hell with fidelity and drive.

But, these are just my observations after 50 years of screwing with this stuff and as always, YMMV.

.

As i I was proofreading this, I saw this pop up:

I'm enjoying the heck out of my superphon sp100 passive/buffered pre-"amp".

Yep, those were nice units for the time and opened a lot of our ears as to what could be done to take the sound of a preamp out of the system without all the problems associated with the pure passive devices.

.

 

[E-Stat]

If it has an influence on sound, demand a new one. (tubes being an exception... if you want your music colored by tubes.)

Sorry, but that's the funniest thing I've read today.

 

[chicks]

Preamp? Meh, who needs a preamp these days, what with digital sources and all? I have thousands of sources at my command, with volume and tone controls entirely in the digital domain, remotely controlled. No preamp in sight...

 

[chadnliz]

Actually your source/computer does have an analog preamplifier gainstage after the digital to analog converter (dac), so one is not saving an analog preamplifier stage. It is a game of semantics and marketing. The volume control not only means nothing as the Fr is plenty high, but cuts the bits as the volume is reduced. Another question is the quality the analog stage possesses, costing a couple of bucks at most in parts.

Cheers
Pos

Exactly

 

[chicks]

Actually your source/computer does have an analog preamplifier gainstage after the digital to analog converter (dac), so one is not saving an analog preamplifier stage. It is a game of semantics and marketing. The volume control not only means nothing as the Fr is plenty high, but cuts the bits as the volume is reduced. Another question is the quality the analog stage possesses, costing a couple of bucks at most in parts.

Cheers
Pos

A simple unity gain buffer, perhaps, unless you're using one of the new "power DAC" designs that doesn't convert to analog until after the final power amplification, typically using PWM.

A common misunderstanding that a digital volume control "cuts bits". Not necessarily, or even usually. A 16-bit signal through a 24- or 32-bit DAC won't lose a thing; it will simply be shifted down to the lower 8 or 16 bits, previously unused. Only at VERY low volume levels would any bits be lost.

Edit: Here's a pretty good article explaining the advantages and pitfalls of digital volume controls in simple terms:

http://www.soundstageultra.com/inde...311-what-s-wrong-with-digital-volume-controls

 

[4-2-7]

Sorry but a preamp needs to get out of the way and not color the signal that passes though it. If we look at no holds bar preamps that's the design goal, turning off switches and anything not in use. They are best without EQ even if there is a pass-though.

That said most preamps are not no holds bar in design and they color the sound.

So how important is the preamp? very.......find one that only does what it needs to do and that would be to get out of the way.