How important is the preamplifier?

[E-Stat]

No the rest......most of this tread went on a tangent disregarding the OP ?

Absolutely. That began with some questioning the fact that preamps make a difference at all!

The OP is past that basic learning stumbling block.

 

[eljr]

I'm not going to get into the weeds with you and hijack this thred I think you are wrong, you think I am so move along.....nothing to see here. Acting as if choosing a pre that sounds ideal in our individual systems is a flawed idea using flawed products is absurd.

Looks like you changed your mind in a hurry...

You need to realize that introducing audio fact to an audio discussion is hardly "getting into the weeds."

Calling a statement of fact absurd is.

Belief systems are hard to break that is the problem we have here. Science has no such problem.

 

[E-Stat]

Belief systems are hard to break that is the problem we have here.

As is the ability for some to imagine what lies outside their experience - based solely upon what they read.

Such is not a problem for those having exposure to better.

 

[eljr]

Eljr:

So his opinion to the op is forget it, they all sound the same, except tubes sound worse. Bad advice given to the OP as I explained in my points.
By the way, both tube and SS can sound bad.


Cheers
Pos

I did not post opinion. That is the root of the discourse here. You and others insist that your beliefs are superior to fact. You have further tried to frame the discussion as opposed opinion, it is not. The discussion is science vs belief system.


I hope this helps you understand

cheers

 

[eljr]

As is the ability for some to imagine what lies outside their experience - based solely upon what they read.

Such is not a problem for those having exposure to better.

:scratch2:

Figure I don't have enough exposure to quality audio to realize science plays second fiddle to belief when it comes to audio?

 

[E-Stat]

I did not post opinion.

Right.

"The preamp is a switch box. If working correctly it has no influence on sound."

Sorry you've never experienced better. Perhaps you should let the OP and others who disagree with your opinion continue to answer his question.

 

[c-atle-79bay]

You've all made me want to listen to "bashin" by jimmy smith. And desire a mute/hide button.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evmQXtlxTzw

Towards the OP's original question,I found that the introduction of the sp100 did not detract from the warmth of my music. But it did seem to create a better sense of detail, resolution and depth and cleanliness of the music I'm listening too. Which to me makes me feel a closer connection to what the artist might have been trying for. Example, when you hear that little pluck, strum, sticks clicking that you did not hear before, for me at least in my completely SUBJECTIVE opinion warms and enhances the music for me.

 

[eljr]

Show me an ABX test where the control for the test itself has been established. You know, the kind of controls always used in medical trials. Beginning with the assumption that the test itself doesn't affect the results is not real science. It's a parlor game.

Can't? Then your post is meaningless.

Show me a properly conducted ABX test where a "high end" amp was detectable, with 90% or better certainty, vs "mid Fi" (silly term) amps. Can't? Until then, your post is meaningless.

Good stuff!

This IS the discussion we need to have!

Good to see it moving into the older, established audio circle.

Beliefs are hard to break but dialogue like this is the first step.

I'll remove myself from this thread because I don't want to be a source of controversy, I'd like to get one or two individuals thinking... I think that has been done.

peace

 

[for_p1]

Right.

"The preamp is a switch box. If working correctly it has no influence on sound."

Sorry you've never experienced better. Perhaps you should let the OP and others who disagree with your opinion continue to answer his question.

Would you agree that if preamp changes sound in comparison wuth straight wire - it is not preamp anymore, but functions like effects processor? From preamp I expect switch sources and change volume - that is it. Actually I would like to have tone controls too, but they should not alter sound in any way when set to neutral (this is actually one of standard tests of preamps, I use to choose them).

 

[SoCal Sam]

Comparison is the key word here. Input signal and output signal can be measured and compared. The difference if any can be considered coloration or distortion, depending on how you perceive the change. This applies to all links in the audio reproduction chain.

 

[c-atle-79bay]

In a round about way, this thread has led me to "The Further Adventures of Jimmy and Wes" Wow, what a great album.

 

[E-Stat]

Would you agree that if preamp changes sound in comparison wuth straight wire - it is not preamp anymore, but functions like effects processor?

I wouldn't use that term exactly as lower resolution preamps aren't necessarily "processing effects" - they're just not fully revealing the signal. The result is opaque as compared to the input. Or, the signal is audibly narrower than the input. Low level dynamics are not accurately captured (a challenge with most passive arrangements).

And that's really a rhetorical question since I've yet to encounter a perfect component. Have you?

 

[E-Stat]

Comparison is the key word here. Input signal and output signal can be measured and compared. The difference if any can be considered coloration or distortion, depending on how you perceive the change.

Theoretically, yes. In practice, however, one must decide which metrics to measure and compare. How do you know you've thought of all of them that matter? I cannot think of any set of conventional audio metrics that provide a complete picture of the way a given component will sound in the real world, aka interacting with other components.

Can you?

 

[TubeHiFiNut]

Here we go.....round and round again with no end in sight.

With apologies to the OP.

As many of you must have surely figured out, I am a Subjectivist regarding audio and hi-fi.

Objectivists can quote double blind tests, measurements and their own set of facts all day long.

Guess what? I don't care.

I trust myself to NOT be awed by the price or pedigree of a component.

I trust my ears to be my best guide regarding the sound of a component.

I trust my abilities and experience to get the best sound from any component that I am evaluating.

The Objectivists will tell you that I am all wet.

Guess what?.....I don't care.

 

[lizard84]

A typical thread here at AK of late, with the usual suspects, blowhard know-it-all's from both camps riding roughshod over a thread.:thumbsdn:

Pathetic

 

[E-Stat]

I am a Subjectivist regarding audio and hi-fi.

Actually, I would consider you and I observationalists. Where objective data is lacking, we fill in additional information via learned observations.

Subjectivity certainly comes into play with either group afterwards when one expresses preferences. We can completely agree on the way a given component sounds, but disagree as to whether or not we choose its set of performance compromises. It might do well in one area, but not another.

 

[E-Stat]

A typical thread here at AK of late, with the usual suspects, blowhard know-it-all's

It does reflect the same script. One camp continually feels the need to *correct* the other with smug and shallow "scientific" puffery:

"If you can't prove your opinion, then its worthless"

Truly pathetic.

 

[JP]

The Objectivists will tell you that I am all wet.

Not all.

 

[SoCal Sam]

Theoretically, yes. In practice, however, one must decide which metrics to measure and compare. How do you know you've thought of all of them that matter? I cannot think of any set of conventional audio metrics that provide a complete picture of the way a given component will sound in the real world, aka interacting with other components.

Can you?

You are searching for the Unifying Theory of Audio, the answer to which like the real one has not been found. The question you pose introduces infinite variables not limited to the numerous brand models and circuit designs but also including frequency and amplitude of the signal itself. I suppose some predictions can be done if you look at the audio chain as a decision tree. You start with signal, choose source, then choose interconnect, then choose preamp, and so on. You would have to know how each possible choice in the audio chain reacts to frequency and amplitude and then generate curves. If the response curves of that link is flat, it is reasonable to predict flat response. And so on and so on. This is simplistic and likely not satisfying.

 

[Porkloin]

Don't Ruin the Fun

I trust myself to NOT be awed by the price or pedigree of a component.

I trust my ears to be my best guide regarding the sound of a component.

I trust my abilities and experience to get the best sound from any component that I am evaluating.

The Objectivists will tell you that I am all wet.

Guess what?.....I don't care.

Quit hitting the nail directly on the head and enjoy the brawl for what it's worth. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/images/smilies/repuke.gif